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welcome to tales from the rabbit hole

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i'm your host mick west and my guest

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today lives in spain

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and uh she met somebody on the internet

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a few months ago

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and he turned out to be a conspiracy

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theorist and we're going to talk about

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that so

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welcome and thank you thank you for

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being here yeah

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so i mean i've listened to some of your

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episodes so i think the first thing i

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want to say is the duration

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of mine is you know it's very short it

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doesn't hit the highs of some of the

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stories i've heard

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right but it's still it's very

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interesting because i think uh yeah the

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experience you had

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is probably something that a lot of

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people would have had

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and it's a kind of a perplexing

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experience i think like you met somebody

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and initially what was your your

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impression of this person

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uh beautiful incredibly handsome um

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incredibly um straightforward and honest

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had an interest in philosophy

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just seemed to care about the world to

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an extent

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and have an idea for his future like he

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was getting everything together

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really nice to be around yeah so i guess

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you thought you'd

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you know you found someone someone good

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from that

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yeah right you know you

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i guess you went out with him a few

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times and then what what what would be

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like the kind of the first inkling you

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had that something wasn't quite

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right right first inkling i don't know

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um

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it was the corona he didn't take

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coronavirus as seriously

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as most people do i think most people

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they don't necessarily believe it but

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they pay lip service to what they need

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to do and say um he wore the mask and he

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did everything he should

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but you know quietly complain so

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would he would he say something about he

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thought

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that it was a hoax or something like

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that he

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didn't think it was dangerous he thought

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it was blown out of the water but i so

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i've just moved to spain so this is a

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completely new experience for me

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so you know i've been meeting new people

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and i have

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been encountering a lot of conspiracy

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theories you know my old ones

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corona virus related so stuff about

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uh china invented it i think people

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talking about

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a nefarious government taking advantage

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of coronavirus

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so all this all these stories are kind

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of

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being proliferated everywhere by people

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i know

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and so when he started saying those

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things i was like

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okay okay there's a general distrust of

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government here

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but that is everywhere at the moment

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right yeah it's interesting the the

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differences in various countries with

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conspiracy theories like i'm

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you know obviously i'm based in in the

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us and from the uk

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but i've been in the u.s for a long time

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so you get this this perspective of uh

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you know what a conspiracy theory is and

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for a lot of people it's very much

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based around what the conspiracy theory

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is in their country

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so it's interesting to hear about other

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countries but the stuff that you're

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you you mentioned in

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your email i think it very much reflects

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a lot of the things

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that we have in the us and the the big

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difference i think between the us

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and europe in terms of conspiracy

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theories

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is that the european conspiracy

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theorists seem a lot more

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um concerned with the idea of

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uh this kind of great replacement type

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thing

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with people coming in and taking over

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the

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oh well yeah so this is this was

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completely new to me

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i mean so our honeymoon period was like

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a really amazing month

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of trying to spend as much time with

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each other as possible on the phone all

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the time

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um you know just kind of falling madly

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for each other

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but slowly these kind of theories came

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through and the

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the really shocking one was this idea of

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spain being taken over

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it was a fear of the eu i felt it had

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parallels with kind of the

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us conspiracy theories as a real

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preoccupation with kind of individual

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rights

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freedom the right to bear arms there we

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go

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there's the first one right to bear arms

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on our first date

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he said i believe

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in gun ownership and as a british person

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that's a

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yeah so what are the the gun laws like

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in spain though

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he's told me uh spanish police officers

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can

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uh have a gun with them at all times but

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it's

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uh difficult to prove that you needed to

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use it

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so police officers have it as a

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deterrent but

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rarely use it do individual people have

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guns in spain do they

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i think it's only related to hunting

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licenses okay

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yeah um you can own a gun

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but it's um there's a lot of

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rules and regulations around it and it's

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not common his idea of like you know

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gun ownership being uh you know a

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fundamental right or whatever

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but he thinks that you should be able to

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own guns do you think that comes from

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some kind of spanish cultural thing or

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is it

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kind of coming from the american

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conspiracy theory type thing because

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obviously in america there's this whole

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second amendment thing

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where gun ownership is is so fundamental

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to so many americans and the idea that

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it's going to be taken away

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is is underpins a lot of uh conspiracy

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theories

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so is it is it the american culture

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infecting the

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spanish conspiracy culture or is it

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something more uniquely spanish

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i don't think i know enough about it to

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confidently say which one i think

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but from what i know of european culture

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technically being european

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there's just no interest in gun

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ownership yeah even when i've met

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people who are considered right-wing

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working in governments and i've been

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their teacher

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when it came to how to act socially

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and um and you know lgbt rights

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and all that very liberal i would say

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more left-wing than the uk

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right yeah yeah so it was a shock for me

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i would never expect that

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so he's talked to you about the

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coronavirus and gun rights

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uh when did the kind of

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the racism creep in when we become aware

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of that

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as soon as i met him and i just

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ignored it and i'm really shocked

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with my behavior because as soon as i

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i think it was like our second or third

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date and he was just kind of

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showing me around the town um and

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he he actively went to the place

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where the jews used to live in the

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town and and

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and said you know this is where we expel

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the jews in like the 14th century

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and you know for me for me i was like

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well you know that's just a historical

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historical fact that most people

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wouldn't be interested in but i would be

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interested in and clearly he's

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interested in that

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yeah and then he spoke a lot about how

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uh there's a lot of romanian gypsies um

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in lots of times in spain

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and he spoke badly like pretty badly of

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them

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which was definitely a red flag

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and uh i you know this is this obviously

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vicky has this

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uh somewhat racist undercurrent but how

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did that kind of like

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manifest itself in terms of a conspiracy

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theory type thing you know

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it's one thing to say like it was a good

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thing to get rid of the jews back in the

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14th century

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and that he doesn't like gypsies you

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know then he's he's going to start at

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some point telling you about

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like some kind of plot that's going on

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yeah

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how did you discover that he had these

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ideas

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i don't know how he lets people know

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about his belief system

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early on i don't know how much he keeps

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to himself he he really did want to

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share

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with me he didn't want to convince me of

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anything

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but he would say inflammatory statements

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and at first

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i would laugh thinking it was some kind

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of shared joke

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and but then the inflammatory statements

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kind of continued and then just one day

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he

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just said i don't like jews and i

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thought it was a joke and i was like

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i haven't met any here

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and he didn't go into the full reasons

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and we were together and he made it into

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an explanation

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about kind of catholics historically

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hating jews being brought up a catholic

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um in a catholic society so i just

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convinced myself i think

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um i just convinced myself that

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it was something he hadn't thought about

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much

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like a cultural thing cultural thing

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something that had been passed down

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on him i was aware from the beginning

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that he hadn't traveled much

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um and he hadn't really been outside of

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spain that

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not that has too much of a bearing but

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you know if you stay in the same area

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with

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yeah can have a bearing you know and i

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was aware that he

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had a difficult time in his childhood

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that he spent a lot of time on the

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internet from a young age

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and he started smoking weed from a

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really young age as well

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that's interesting so what did he uh was

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he using uh weed

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when you were with him it's interesting

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because i

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i was just talking to a woman a few days

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ago i just

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published her podcast her name was sarah

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and she mentioned

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uh that her partner was

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smoking a lot cannabis uh she felt like

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that this actually had an effect

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on his beliefs his conspiracy beliefs

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did you ever suspect anything like that

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that the drug use

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contributed in some way to the the

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beliefs or the growth of these beliefs

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i mean absolutely i mean i i'm all for

286
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the legalization

287
00:10:19,350 --> 00:10:18,399
of these but it's still a drug and it

288
00:10:21,030 --> 00:10:19,360
still affects

289
00:10:22,470 --> 00:10:21,040
your brain and your ability to process

290
00:10:26,069 --> 00:10:22,480
information

291
00:10:28,230 --> 00:10:26,079
yeah and if you're smoking it every day

292
00:10:29,350 --> 00:10:28,240
for many many years that is going to

293
00:10:33,829 --> 00:10:29,360
have an effect

294
00:10:36,870 --> 00:10:33,839
see yourself it's gonna

295
00:10:38,550 --> 00:10:36,880
have an effect on your your motivation

296
00:10:39,269 --> 00:10:38,560
to do different things to try different

297
00:10:41,350 --> 00:10:39,279
things

298
00:10:43,350 --> 00:10:41,360
because when you smoke you be when

299
00:10:46,550 --> 00:10:43,360
people smoke they become passive

300
00:10:49,670 --> 00:10:46,560
um and you know just easily just

301
00:10:51,190 --> 00:10:49,680
take in lots of information watch tv for

302
00:10:54,470 --> 00:10:51,200
hours and hours and hours

303
00:10:55,670 --> 00:10:54,480
and i know youtube have changed i know

304
00:10:57,509 --> 00:10:55,680
they've changed their algorithm but for

305
00:10:58,870 --> 00:10:57,519
a good few years their algorithm was

306
00:11:00,630 --> 00:10:58,880
take you to the next video that's the

307
00:11:01,829 --> 00:11:00,640
most similar to this video so then

308
00:11:03,829 --> 00:11:01,839
people would get

309
00:11:05,430 --> 00:11:03,839
they would really get stuck in you know

310
00:11:06,389 --> 00:11:05,440
their own echo chamber and if you're

311
00:11:08,550 --> 00:11:06,399
watching

312
00:11:09,590 --> 00:11:08,560
content that's going to continue i also

313
00:11:12,470 --> 00:11:09,600
know that he was a

314
00:11:14,150 --> 00:11:12,480
an avid 4chan user for many years oh

315
00:11:15,590 --> 00:11:14,160
really

316
00:11:17,430 --> 00:11:15,600
yeah now would that be an english

317
00:11:19,990 --> 00:11:17,440
language 4chan

318
00:11:21,030 --> 00:11:20,000
yeah his uh speaking comprehension and

319
00:11:24,230 --> 00:11:21,040
listening skills

320
00:11:24,630 --> 00:11:24,240
in english are excellent all right yeah

321
00:11:26,389 --> 00:11:24,640
so

322
00:11:27,990 --> 00:11:26,399
he probably got quite a lot of stuff

323
00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:28,000
from 4chan because that's obviously a

324
00:11:31,190 --> 00:11:29,040
big

325
00:11:32,150 --> 00:11:31,200
melting pot of various conspiracy

326
00:11:34,069 --> 00:11:32,160
theories and

327
00:11:35,509 --> 00:11:34,079
and racism and sexism and things like

328
00:11:37,430 --> 00:11:35,519
that

329
00:11:38,710 --> 00:11:37,440
um you mentioned like i was just looking

330
00:11:39,750 --> 00:11:38,720
over your email you mentioned that you

331
00:11:43,509 --> 00:11:39,760
were interested in

332
00:11:45,269 --> 00:11:43,519
in cell culture ties in a little bit

333
00:11:47,670 --> 00:11:45,279
with with 4chan to a degree

334
00:11:49,590 --> 00:11:47,680
but uh how did you get interested in in

335
00:11:51,829 --> 00:11:49,600
in cell culture can you briefly describe

336
00:11:53,990 --> 00:11:51,839
what in cell culture actually is

337
00:11:55,990 --> 00:11:54,000
from my personal experience i lived in a

338
00:11:58,470 --> 00:11:56,000
lovely little liberal bubble

339
00:11:59,269 --> 00:11:58,480
a lovely little kind of art school

340
00:12:02,470 --> 00:11:59,279
london

341
00:12:03,670 --> 00:12:02,480
bubble people around my age with my very

342
00:12:07,910 --> 00:12:03,680
left wing beliefs

343
00:12:11,509 --> 00:12:07,920
progressive you know typical city

344
00:12:14,629 --> 00:12:11,519
point of view and when i got to

345
00:12:15,350 --> 00:12:14,639
vietnam it there was there's a when

346
00:12:18,550 --> 00:12:15,360
people

347
00:12:18,949 --> 00:12:18,560
move really far away there's a lot of

348
00:12:22,069 --> 00:12:18,959
lost

349
00:12:27,030 --> 00:12:22,079
souls and there's a lot of bitterness

350
00:12:29,269 --> 00:12:27,040
um and i just met a lot of

351
00:12:31,110 --> 00:12:29,279
i just met a lot of men who really

352
00:12:34,389 --> 00:12:31,120
didn't like women very much

353
00:12:36,310 --> 00:12:34,399
you know spending years around you know

354
00:12:38,230 --> 00:12:36,320
years kind of studying feminism

355
00:12:40,230 --> 00:12:38,240
as an undergraduate talking about all

356
00:12:42,310 --> 00:12:40,240
these theories and ideas it was

357
00:12:43,829 --> 00:12:42,320
amazing for me you know being convinced

358
00:12:46,790 --> 00:12:43,839
that the whole world felt the same

359
00:12:48,389 --> 00:12:46,800
as me and then kind of turning up to a

360
00:12:51,430 --> 00:12:48,399
new place and being like wow no

361
00:12:55,750 --> 00:12:51,440
there's a lot of very upset

362
00:12:58,870 --> 00:12:55,760
western men um coming to another country

363
00:12:59,670 --> 00:12:58,880
to kind of live some kind of fantasy of

364
00:13:03,190 --> 00:12:59,680
uh

365
00:13:06,230 --> 00:13:03,200
of um the perfect household

366
00:13:06,790 --> 00:13:06,240
you know uh the man of the house and

367
00:13:09,430 --> 00:13:06,800
then

368
00:13:11,269 --> 00:13:09,440
um a younger beautiful woman who listens

369
00:13:14,069 --> 00:13:11,279
to you and cooks all your food

370
00:13:14,629 --> 00:13:14,079
and then you have children and there can

371
00:13:17,590 --> 00:13:14,639
be

372
00:13:19,269 --> 00:13:17,600
a lot of animosity towards western women

373
00:13:22,230 --> 00:13:19,279
by western men

374
00:13:23,509 --> 00:13:22,240
in places like vietnam that's

375
00:13:23,990 --> 00:13:23,519
fascinating i've never really heard of

376
00:13:26,550 --> 00:13:24,000
it

377
00:13:27,829 --> 00:13:26,560
put like that before but yeah you can

378
00:13:29,509 --> 00:13:27,839
you can kind of see that

379
00:13:31,110 --> 00:13:29,519
uh because you do have a more

380
00:13:32,870 --> 00:13:31,120
traditional family structure i guess in

381
00:13:36,069 --> 00:13:32,880
in vietnam with uh

382
00:13:37,990 --> 00:13:36,079
is it more of a paternal figure

383
00:13:39,189 --> 00:13:38,000
rule in the household type thing in in

384
00:13:40,710 --> 00:13:39,199
vietnam or or

385
00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:40,720
at least being the head of the household

386
00:13:45,269 --> 00:13:42,240
the women there are strong

387
00:13:50,790 --> 00:13:45,279
um um

388
00:13:56,470 --> 00:13:53,910
yeah absolutely yeah vietnamese uh

389
00:13:57,110 --> 00:13:56,480
culture can be very masculine you know

390
00:13:59,430 --> 00:13:57,120
we all

391
00:14:01,030 --> 00:13:59,440
um there are jokes about western men

392
00:14:03,189 --> 00:14:01,040
going over to asia

393
00:14:04,389 --> 00:14:03,199
to find a docile woman and it's funny

394
00:14:07,110 --> 00:14:04,399
because they don't really find a docile

395
00:14:11,590 --> 00:14:08,870
but they but you know but they do find a

396
00:14:13,990 --> 00:14:11,600
woman who has been taught

397
00:14:14,870 --> 00:14:14,000
what her role is in a romantic

398
00:14:17,030 --> 00:14:14,880
relationship

399
00:14:18,310 --> 00:14:17,040
and it's quite different what western

400
00:14:21,670 --> 00:14:18,320
women expect

401
00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:21,680
yeah yeah so within cells it's this kind

402
00:14:25,430 --> 00:14:22,000
of

403
00:14:28,310 --> 00:14:25,440
um i guess a movement uh

404
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:28,320
in in you know i've only already seen it

405
00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:29,279
in the states

406
00:14:31,750 --> 00:14:30,480
but i mean i guess it's going to be all

407
00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:31,760
around the world because it's this this

408
00:14:35,350 --> 00:14:33,120
kind of

409
00:14:36,629 --> 00:14:35,360
men being disaffected with their

410
00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:36,639
position because they feel like they're

411
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:38,720
being rejected by women and they

412
00:14:44,069 --> 00:14:42,000
they kind of fall into this more uh

413
00:14:46,069 --> 00:14:44,079
this idea that western culture is being

414
00:14:47,590 --> 00:14:46,079
changed and traditional gender roles

415
00:14:49,509 --> 00:14:47,600
are being changed and they don't like it

416
00:14:51,829 --> 00:14:49,519
and they want to change it back

417
00:14:53,829 --> 00:14:51,839
uh and i think you know that that is to

418
00:14:56,710 --> 00:14:53,839
a degree kind of

419
00:14:58,389 --> 00:14:56,720
underpinning a a variety of these these

420
00:14:58,790 --> 00:14:58,399
right-wing conspiracy theory is not like

421
00:15:02,310 --> 00:14:58,800
as a

422
00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:02,320
everything's based on but it's like one

423
00:15:06,870 --> 00:15:05,040
one aspect of it they think that the the

424
00:15:09,750 --> 00:15:06,880
culture is changing so

425
00:15:10,310 --> 00:15:09,760
they're fighting yeah absolutely there's

426
00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:10,320
a

427
00:15:25,750 --> 00:15:25,440
subscribed to like not in cells so much

428
00:15:29,749 --> 00:15:25,760
but

429
00:15:32,949 --> 00:15:29,759
kind of men's rights or uh no

430
00:15:36,069 --> 00:15:32,959
and that's something that i i

431
00:15:37,590 --> 00:15:36,079
in vietnam learn to pick up on and also

432
00:15:39,430 --> 00:15:37,600
try and understand the shades of it

433
00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:39,440
because in my office

434
00:15:43,590 --> 00:15:42,160
when you become long term in uh in a

435
00:15:46,310 --> 00:15:43,600
place like vietnam

436
00:15:48,389 --> 00:15:46,320
the women leave the western women leave

437
00:15:50,230 --> 00:15:48,399
so

438
00:15:51,910 --> 00:15:50,240
uh because there's not really there's

439
00:15:53,749 --> 00:15:51,920
not many opportunities for them to

440
00:15:56,470 --> 00:15:53,759
settle down to build a life there

441
00:15:57,030 --> 00:15:56,480
one not all but a lot of western men

442
00:15:59,350 --> 00:15:57,040
stay

443
00:16:00,710 --> 00:15:59,360
and they build lives there but what

444
00:16:04,629 --> 00:16:00,720
comes with this

445
00:16:08,389 --> 00:16:04,639
is um uh an accepted atmosphere

446
00:16:11,430 --> 00:16:08,399
of the of these ideas

447
00:16:12,790 --> 00:16:11,440
and for me coming into offices and you

448
00:16:14,629 --> 00:16:12,800
know and building relationships with

449
00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:14,639
these kind of guys

450
00:16:18,069 --> 00:16:17,440
um who they were all on that on that

451
00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:18,079
level of

452
00:16:25,509 --> 00:16:22,240
joe rogan loving um uh

453
00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:25,519
jordan peterson reading you know

454
00:16:30,310 --> 00:16:28,880
white middle-aged men um you know and me

455
00:16:33,110 --> 00:16:30,320
coming in

456
00:16:33,670 --> 00:16:33,120
this like at the time like 29 year old

457
00:16:37,189 --> 00:16:33,680
like

458
00:16:38,790 --> 00:16:37,199
a feminist from london um

459
00:16:40,230 --> 00:16:38,800
yeah how did they react to you then i

460
00:16:41,350 --> 00:16:40,240
mean it was

461
00:16:44,069 --> 00:16:41,360
do you think it was a bit difficult for

462
00:16:44,470 --> 00:16:44,079
them yeah some of them absolutely hated

463
00:16:47,269 --> 00:16:44,480
me

464
00:16:47,910 --> 00:16:47,279
um but a lot of them didn't um and i had

465
00:16:55,189 --> 00:16:47,920
a

466
00:16:58,710 --> 00:16:55,199
been left behind

467
00:17:03,030 --> 00:16:58,720
and he was fearful of the binary between

468
00:17:09,990 --> 00:17:06,549
yeah absolutely um and he

469
00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:10,000
he felt like he had been left behind and

470
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:12,720
um and jordan peterson really spoke to

471
00:17:16,150 --> 00:17:13,120
him

472
00:17:17,429 --> 00:17:16,160
personally yeah yeah jordan pearson's an

473
00:17:20,949 --> 00:17:17,439
interesting character

474
00:17:21,590 --> 00:17:20,959
uh yeah this i mean do you do you feel

475
00:17:25,029 --> 00:17:21,600
like

476
00:17:28,630 --> 00:17:25,039
you know you're a young liberal feminist

477
00:17:30,230 --> 00:17:28,640
and do you feel like there's a

478
00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:30,240
there is definitely a change in the

479
00:17:35,350 --> 00:17:32,400
culture that's been gone going on for

480
00:17:36,150 --> 00:17:35,360
decades basically and do you feel like

481
00:17:39,029 --> 00:17:36,160
it's kind of like

482
00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:39,039
forcing things out into the open that

483
00:17:43,590 --> 00:17:40,400
were always there or is it kind of

484
00:17:45,270 --> 00:17:43,600
creating something new

485
00:17:47,750 --> 00:17:45,280
in terms of these you know disaffected

486
00:17:51,430 --> 00:17:47,760
young men

487
00:17:55,029 --> 00:17:51,440
when you are the placeholder

488
00:17:57,830 --> 00:17:55,039
um of the just by your gender

489
00:17:59,430 --> 00:17:57,840
and the color of your skin of the the

490
00:17:59,990 --> 00:17:59,440
most amount of rights the most amount of

491
00:18:03,350 --> 00:18:00,000
respect

492
00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:03,360
the most ability and access to education

493
00:18:09,110 --> 00:18:06,400
um social mobility and but

494
00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:09,120
nobody tells you that you are nobody has

495
00:18:12,950 --> 00:18:11,120
ever told you that you're that

496
00:18:14,789 --> 00:18:12,960
and then suddenly i mean not suddenly i

497
00:18:15,669 --> 00:18:14,799
mean it's been it's been a really slow

498
00:18:17,669 --> 00:18:15,679
process

499
00:18:19,669 --> 00:18:17,679
but more and more people people are

500
00:18:21,909 --> 00:18:19,679
saying hey look at that privilege

501
00:18:23,909 --> 00:18:21,919
why don't i have that first you had

502
00:18:26,470 --> 00:18:23,919
first you had white feminists

503
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:26,480
then you get um and of course black

504
00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:28,000
rights movement and then this

505
00:18:31,110 --> 00:18:30,240
starts coming into how rather than it

506
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:31,120
just being

507
00:18:34,870 --> 00:18:34,080
based on the culture of actual physical

508
00:18:36,789 --> 00:18:34,880
rights

509
00:18:38,150 --> 00:18:36,799
you start talking about what are the

510
00:18:40,549 --> 00:18:38,160
problems impeding

511
00:18:42,150 --> 00:18:40,559
my life and the and how i'm being

512
00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:42,160
treated day to day

513
00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:45,200
and i do think if you

514
00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:48,480
go in and attack and say look at what

515
00:18:53,190 --> 00:18:50,160
you've got look at your privilege

516
00:18:55,830 --> 00:18:53,200
the the first thing a lot of white men

517
00:18:56,549 --> 00:18:55,840
who are struggling for many reasons are

518
00:18:58,630 --> 00:18:56,559
going to do

519
00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:58,640
is get aggressive and become like a

520
00:19:03,510 --> 00:19:00,240
victim

521
00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:03,520
i am making sense and yeah and this is

522
00:19:06,950 --> 00:19:04,400
what i saw

523
00:19:09,350 --> 00:19:06,960
and you can't negate people's own

524
00:19:12,150 --> 00:19:09,360
personal experiences because even though

525
00:19:13,510 --> 00:19:12,160
you as a white middle-class male have a

526
00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:13,520
lot of opportunities

527
00:19:17,750 --> 00:19:14,960
and a lot of respect in society other

528
00:19:20,310 --> 00:19:17,760
people don't you still have your own

529
00:19:21,510 --> 00:19:20,320
problems and troubles and there's a

530
00:19:24,070 --> 00:19:21,520
whole side of

531
00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:24,080
there's like a whole masculinity studies

532
00:19:27,510 --> 00:19:25,200
isn't there where they talk

533
00:19:28,630 --> 00:19:27,520
where it where these issues are

534
00:19:32,549 --> 00:19:28,640
discussed

535
00:19:35,430 --> 00:19:32,559
um and um expectations

536
00:19:35,990 --> 00:19:35,440
of men in society and how they struggle

537
00:19:42,950 --> 00:19:36,000
yeah

538
00:19:43,909 --> 00:19:42,960
middle-class white male and uh i don't

539
00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:43,919
know if i

540
00:19:47,909 --> 00:19:46,240
i really had this expectation when i was

541
00:19:51,029 --> 00:19:47,919
growing up that i was going to be

542
00:19:53,990 --> 00:19:51,039
uh privileged but i never really saw any

543
00:19:55,430 --> 00:19:54,000
major obstacles in in in my future when

544
00:19:56,950 --> 00:19:55,440
i was young it just seemed like oh i'm

545
00:19:59,110 --> 00:19:56,960
going to go to university

546
00:20:00,310 --> 00:19:59,120
i'm going to get a job i'm going to have

547
00:20:01,830 --> 00:20:00,320
buy a house

548
00:20:03,830 --> 00:20:01,840
probably get married i wasn't really

549
00:20:05,350 --> 00:20:03,840
into getting married back then but

550
00:20:07,350 --> 00:20:05,360
you know it just seemed like it was all

551
00:20:10,149 --> 00:20:07,360
going to going to happen

552
00:20:12,549 --> 00:20:10,159
and i think people don't realize they're

553
00:20:14,310 --> 00:20:12,559
privileged obviously and then when they

554
00:20:15,750 --> 00:20:14,320
they're told that they're privileged and

555
00:20:16,789 --> 00:20:15,760
then they feel that their lives aren't

556
00:20:18,870 --> 00:20:16,799
going the way

557
00:20:20,950 --> 00:20:18,880
that they they would assume or they like

558
00:20:22,789 --> 00:20:20,960
then then they get angry about being

559
00:20:24,789 --> 00:20:22,799
labeled as being privileged

560
00:20:26,710 --> 00:20:24,799
and they see the issue as being

561
00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:26,720
elsewhere absolutely and i do think

562
00:20:31,190 --> 00:20:28,559
there's an element of scapegoating in

563
00:20:33,029 --> 00:20:31,200
uh scapegoating involved in this it's so

564
00:20:35,110 --> 00:20:33,039
easy to get angry at a group

565
00:20:36,789 --> 00:20:35,120
who's telling you you're wrong rather

566
00:20:38,149 --> 00:20:36,799
than i mean i mean it's not like i'm

567
00:20:39,669 --> 00:20:38,159
expecting people to do that but i do

568
00:20:42,710 --> 00:20:39,679
think there are some systemic

569
00:20:45,190 --> 00:20:42,720
economic uh problems

570
00:20:46,549 --> 00:20:45,200
that have been happening for a long time

571
00:20:49,909 --> 00:20:46,559
which means that

572
00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:49,919
the expectation that i was given as a uh

573
00:20:53,350 --> 00:20:52,240
as a working class you know relatively

574
00:20:55,350 --> 00:20:53,360
poor working class

575
00:20:56,470 --> 00:20:55,360
person was that i would go to university

576
00:20:58,870 --> 00:20:56,480
it would be free

577
00:21:00,630 --> 00:20:58,880
i would go get mia and i would and i

578
00:21:02,070 --> 00:21:00,640
wouldn't be in that situation anymore

579
00:21:04,710 --> 00:21:02,080
because of education

580
00:21:05,590 --> 00:21:04,720
but i don't think that is realistic

581
00:21:07,830 --> 00:21:05,600
anymore

582
00:21:09,190 --> 00:21:07,840
and you know i expected to own a house i

583
00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:09,200
expected to have a car

584
00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:12,240
i expected you know children all these

585
00:21:15,270 --> 00:21:13,200
things and

586
00:21:16,630 --> 00:21:15,280
none of those things are available maybe

587
00:21:18,710 --> 00:21:16,640
one day i'll get a car but none of these

588
00:21:22,950 --> 00:21:18,720
things are available to me

589
00:21:24,549 --> 00:21:22,960
um and they're a struggle to get um

590
00:21:26,549 --> 00:21:24,559
yeah i'm kind of a generation ahead of

591
00:21:29,990 --> 00:21:26,559
you like i'm in my 50s now

592
00:21:32,549 --> 00:21:30,000
and when i grew up university

593
00:21:33,110 --> 00:21:32,559
was very much uh kind of expected and

594
00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:33,120
free

595
00:21:36,710 --> 00:21:34,720
for anybody who who went through the

596
00:21:38,630 --> 00:21:36,720
school system uh you just

597
00:21:39,830 --> 00:21:38,640
you went to university i got a grant to

598
00:21:43,270 --> 00:21:39,840
go to university it

599
00:21:45,590 --> 00:21:43,280
didn't cost me anything um and

600
00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:45,600
uh it it it was it's remarkable kind of

601
00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:47,200
looking back on it just how

602
00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:50,400
uh almost how easy life was back then

603
00:21:53,590 --> 00:21:52,080
that you would just go to university

604
00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:53,600
and uh get a job of course you had to be

605
00:22:00,789 --> 00:21:56,080
able to do the work at university but

606
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:00,799
uh it's it it was almost like

607
00:22:04,789 --> 00:22:03,280
uh my hands were being held through this

608
00:22:06,950 --> 00:22:04,799
whole process

609
00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:06,960
and i think perhaps with things moving

610
00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:09,120
away from that model now over the last

611
00:22:11,990 --> 00:22:10,799
you know few decades

612
00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:12,000
and it's certainly really never been

613
00:22:15,350 --> 00:22:13,520
like that in the united states you don't

614
00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:15,360
really get this this this uh

615
00:22:19,029 --> 00:22:17,520
you know free free university everybody

616
00:22:21,350 --> 00:22:19,039
ends up with with massive

617
00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:21,360
massive debts i don't know much about

618
00:22:24,149 --> 00:22:22,720
the united states but

619
00:22:26,149 --> 00:22:24,159
i think there's something about the

620
00:22:29,029 --> 00:22:26,159
united states i mean i've i've

621
00:22:30,470 --> 00:22:29,039
read about and it's this kind of denial

622
00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:30,480
of the class system

623
00:22:33,750 --> 00:22:32,400
in the uk we're open about it people are

624
00:22:37,270 --> 00:22:33,760
like yo i'm working class

625
00:22:39,750 --> 00:22:37,280
yo i'm getting fat we're very we

626
00:22:41,029 --> 00:22:39,760
we we we talk about that openly it's on

627
00:22:44,390 --> 00:22:41,039
our tv screens

628
00:22:46,230 --> 00:22:44,400
we see we see how people live in

629
00:22:47,909 --> 00:22:46,240
in in different ways but in america

630
00:22:50,549 --> 00:22:47,919
there seems to be this

631
00:22:51,669 --> 00:22:50,559
just you just don't see poor people on

632
00:22:53,909 --> 00:22:51,679
tv

633
00:22:55,110 --> 00:22:53,919
yeah i mean there certainly are uh

634
00:22:56,950 --> 00:22:55,120
obviously there's poor people but

635
00:22:59,029 --> 00:22:56,960
there's kind of a there's there's some

636
00:23:00,470 --> 00:22:59,039
poor culture i guess you would put it

637
00:23:02,870 --> 00:23:00,480
with kind of like the

638
00:23:03,909 --> 00:23:02,880
the the redneck uh for want of a better

639
00:23:06,149 --> 00:23:03,919
word uh

640
00:23:08,789 --> 00:23:06,159
uh culture they will label themselves as

641
00:23:09,350 --> 00:23:08,799
being proud rednecks and people who who

642
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:09,360
live in

643
00:23:14,070 --> 00:23:12,480
in poor generally white cultures uh in

644
00:23:15,270 --> 00:23:14,080
the united states but uh

645
00:23:16,870 --> 00:23:15,280
yeah there's certainly a sense in the

646
00:23:17,750 --> 00:23:16,880
united states that i think someone said

647
00:23:19,590 --> 00:23:17,760
that

648
00:23:21,510 --> 00:23:19,600
everybody in the united states is a

649
00:23:23,110 --> 00:23:21,520
millionaire who has been temporarily

650
00:23:26,950 --> 00:23:23,120
inconvenienced

651
00:23:28,549 --> 00:23:26,960
uh and that everybody feels

652
00:23:31,590 --> 00:23:28,559
like you know we should shouldn't tax

653
00:23:33,110 --> 00:23:31,600
the rich because one day i might be rich

654
00:23:34,789 --> 00:23:33,120
and they think that you know this this

655
00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:34,799
idea of money is is

656
00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:38,240
is very much open to everybody when it

657
00:23:42,950 --> 00:23:40,320
obviously isn't there's a huge

658
00:23:43,750 --> 00:23:42,960
huge proportion of the the people in

659
00:23:45,750 --> 00:23:43,760
this country who are

660
00:23:47,269 --> 00:23:45,760
never going to get rich and it's

661
00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:47,279
impossible that everybody will be

662
00:23:50,789 --> 00:23:49,200
and it is kind of strange they talk a

663
00:23:52,549 --> 00:23:50,799
lot about the middle class

664
00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:52,559
in the united states which always kind

665
00:23:55,269 --> 00:23:54,240
of i always found very interesting

666
00:23:57,110 --> 00:23:55,279
because they never talk about the

667
00:23:58,950 --> 00:23:57,120
working class

668
00:24:00,310 --> 00:23:58,960
and they kind of fold them in together

669
00:24:00,950 --> 00:24:00,320
but there is there is in the united

670
00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:00,960
states

671
00:24:04,070 --> 00:24:03,120
there's middle class people you know

672
00:24:06,470 --> 00:24:04,080
people with with

673
00:24:08,149 --> 00:24:06,480
jobs and houses and then there's this

674
00:24:11,190 --> 00:24:08,159
this huge

675
00:24:12,630 --> 00:24:11,200
uh mass of people the working class and

676
00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:12,640
the unemployed

677
00:24:17,350 --> 00:24:14,640
who just don't even get a say really in

678
00:24:18,470 --> 00:24:17,360
uh in the culture i think

679
00:24:21,830 --> 00:24:18,480
and i think there may be something

680
00:24:23,909 --> 00:24:21,840
coming from from that if you can't

681
00:24:25,269 --> 00:24:23,919
if the middle class is being

682
00:24:27,590 --> 00:24:25,279
increasingly excluded

683
00:24:28,390 --> 00:24:27,600
to you then you're going to get this

684
00:24:31,830 --> 00:24:28,400
this type of

685
00:24:32,950 --> 00:24:31,840
resentment and you know perhaps you

686
00:24:35,110 --> 00:24:32,960
don't get it so much

687
00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:35,120
in the uk because people say oh i'm

688
00:24:38,789 --> 00:24:36,720
working class then you know it's okay

689
00:24:40,630 --> 00:24:38,799
for me to live on a council estate and

690
00:24:42,230 --> 00:24:40,640
draw the doll i'm not sure exactly what

691
00:24:45,029 --> 00:24:42,240
they do nowadays that's what

692
00:24:46,230 --> 00:24:45,039
i would describe it back in the 30 years

693
00:24:49,830 --> 00:24:46,240
ago

694
00:24:52,870 --> 00:24:49,840
yeah it's um so with your your friend

695
00:24:54,390 --> 00:24:52,880
uh in spain he

696
00:24:56,789 --> 00:24:54,400
you think you described him as being

697
00:24:58,630 --> 00:24:56,799
middle class

698
00:25:00,630 --> 00:24:58,640
from what i can tell his family always

699
00:25:04,070 --> 00:25:00,640
worked he never talked about

700
00:25:08,230 --> 00:25:04,080
being in poverty um i do think

701
00:25:09,990 --> 00:25:08,240
there was neglect from from parents

702
00:25:11,830 --> 00:25:10,000
maybe some form of abuse there's

703
00:25:13,190 --> 00:25:11,840
definitely neglect though

704
00:25:16,470 --> 00:25:13,200
there was definitely a lot of anger

705
00:25:18,549 --> 00:25:16,480
towards family members

706
00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:18,559
he said he didn't do so well in school

707
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:20,000
there was problems with school

708
00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:22,559
yeah he uh told me that he believed

709
00:25:27,990 --> 00:25:23,760
himself to be autistic

710
00:25:29,750 --> 00:25:28,000
really early on yeah so i was like okay

711
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:29,760
um i don't know what to do with this

712
00:25:33,430 --> 00:25:31,360
information to be honest um

713
00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:33,440
i've got a family member who's autistic

714
00:25:37,190 --> 00:25:34,640
but it made me

715
00:25:38,789 --> 00:25:37,200
because i really liked him uh and and

716
00:25:40,870 --> 00:25:38,799
you know it made me want to understand

717
00:25:42,310 --> 00:25:40,880
it more so i researched a lot what's

718
00:25:43,430 --> 00:25:42,320
said what's it like to be

719
00:25:46,390 --> 00:25:43,440
ridiculous what's it like to be in a

720
00:25:48,870 --> 00:25:46,400
relationship with an autistic person and

721
00:25:50,390 --> 00:25:48,880
you know what what to expect and um

722
00:25:52,149 --> 00:25:50,400
what's difficult is and

723
00:25:53,669 --> 00:25:52,159
and um all those all those things that

724
00:25:55,269 --> 00:25:53,679
i've read maybe

725
00:25:56,950 --> 00:25:55,279
maybe i was trying to find it but all

726
00:25:58,149 --> 00:25:56,960
those things i was reading for a little

727
00:26:01,029 --> 00:25:58,159
bit of support and

728
00:26:03,190 --> 00:26:01,039
understanding were were quite easily

729
00:26:04,630 --> 00:26:03,200
identifiable in him so i was like oh

730
00:26:05,350 --> 00:26:04,640
yeah i think he's got it right i do

731
00:26:08,789 --> 00:26:05,360
think

732
00:26:12,070 --> 00:26:08,799
he isn't uh he is neurodiverse

733
00:26:13,909 --> 00:26:12,080
um in some ways um and

734
00:26:15,269 --> 00:26:13,919
i got the impression that he was really

735
00:26:18,549 --> 00:26:15,279
ignored at school

736
00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:18,559
and treated like a a a problem

737
00:26:22,549 --> 00:26:20,960
rather than trying to be understood and

738
00:26:25,029 --> 00:26:22,559
his family never

739
00:26:25,669 --> 00:26:25,039
accepted that he was in any way

740
00:26:27,269 --> 00:26:25,679
different

741
00:26:29,269 --> 00:26:27,279
um which probably would have caused a

742
00:26:31,909 --> 00:26:29,279
lot of problems yeah yeah definitely

743
00:26:32,630 --> 00:26:31,919
uh so when you say he was ignored at

744
00:26:34,390 --> 00:26:32,640
school

745
00:26:36,310 --> 00:26:34,400
what does that mean ignored by his

746
00:26:38,310 --> 00:26:36,320
classmates or ignored by the teachers

747
00:26:40,070 --> 00:26:38,320
uh that he wasn't considered

748
00:26:42,950 --> 00:26:40,080
academically bright

749
00:26:45,029 --> 00:26:42,960
so he was just left to it i know that he

750
00:26:47,350 --> 00:26:45,039
just played a lot of video games spent a

751
00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:47,360
lot of time online from a young age

752
00:26:52,470 --> 00:26:48,960
kind of sounds like me is that we didn't

753
00:26:54,230 --> 00:26:52,480
have online when i was young i

754
00:26:55,990 --> 00:26:54,240
i was kind of left in my own devices as

755
00:26:58,149 --> 00:26:56,000
a child i ended up

756
00:26:59,669 --> 00:26:58,159
programming computer games rather than

757
00:27:01,590 --> 00:26:59,679
them playing them

758
00:27:03,110 --> 00:27:01,600
i mean you know my my brothers spent

759
00:27:05,110 --> 00:27:03,120
most of their childhood on

760
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:05,120
on you know playing games and playing

761
00:27:10,230 --> 00:27:06,720
computer games with friends and

762
00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:10,240
just being part of that culture and part

763
00:27:14,950 --> 00:27:11,520
of that world

764
00:27:15,269 --> 00:27:14,960
um with no problems yeah and i guess

765
00:27:18,549 --> 00:27:15,279
like

766
00:27:19,350 --> 00:27:18,559
what are the factors in people's past

767
00:27:21,190 --> 00:27:19,360
that can kind of

768
00:27:22,389 --> 00:27:21,200
lead them to to come to this place where

769
00:27:24,710 --> 00:27:22,399
they start distrusting

770
00:27:26,230 --> 00:27:24,720
things and you know you you obviously if

771
00:27:27,430 --> 00:27:26,240
you looked into in-cell culture you

772
00:27:28,710 --> 00:27:27,440
might be familiar with things like

773
00:27:30,389 --> 00:27:28,720
gamergate

774
00:27:32,830 --> 00:27:30,399
uh which is a thing in the in the game

775
00:27:35,269 --> 00:27:32,840
culture where

776
00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:35,279
uh male young male

777
00:27:38,789 --> 00:27:37,600
gamers were essentially harassing this

778
00:27:42,070 --> 00:27:38,799
this journalist

779
00:27:43,990 --> 00:27:42,080
who who they thought had um

780
00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:44,000
done something wrong by giving a a

781
00:27:47,110 --> 00:27:45,520
positive review or something like that i

782
00:27:47,510 --> 00:27:47,120
can't remember the exact details like

783
00:27:52,310 --> 00:27:47,520
and

784
00:27:54,310 --> 00:27:52,320
in game journalism but it really seemed

785
00:27:56,789 --> 00:27:54,320
like this this horrible misogynist

786
00:27:58,070 --> 00:27:56,799
uh thing which is kind of ties in with

787
00:28:01,510 --> 00:27:58,080
intel culture

788
00:28:04,549 --> 00:28:01,520
and it kind of gave gamers in a way a

789
00:28:05,750 --> 00:28:04,559
a bad name but not necessarily on

790
00:28:07,590 --> 00:28:05,760
warrantedly because

791
00:28:09,669 --> 00:28:07,600
you know if you've got a lot of young

792
00:28:12,950 --> 00:28:09,679
males in a culture you're going to get

793
00:28:16,710 --> 00:28:12,960
something of a toxic mix in there from

794
00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:16,720
from some of them and that feels like it

795
00:28:20,630 --> 00:28:18,000
relates to things like

796
00:28:22,149 --> 00:28:20,640
like 4chan and 8chan these these online

797
00:28:23,990 --> 00:28:22,159
discussion boards

798
00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:24,000
uh you get these young males together

799
00:28:28,549 --> 00:28:26,080
and this young male culture

800
00:28:31,110 --> 00:28:28,559
but you know how does that all come

801
00:28:32,950 --> 00:28:31,120
around to anti-semitism and

802
00:28:35,029 --> 00:28:32,960
belief in these conspiracy theories like

803
00:28:37,750 --> 00:28:35,039
there's this conspiracy theory

804
00:28:39,669 --> 00:28:37,760
so i think being around men he didn't

805
00:28:43,909 --> 00:28:39,679
necessarily like western women very much

806
00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:43,919
instead of being being aggressive or

807
00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:46,240
reactionary with them i learned to just

808
00:28:49,750 --> 00:28:47,200
kind of

809
00:28:51,190 --> 00:28:49,760
talk on their level but make it clear

810
00:28:51,909 --> 00:28:51,200
that i didn't necessarily agree with

811
00:28:53,350 --> 00:28:51,919
them

812
00:28:55,029 --> 00:28:53,360
that when they said something

813
00:28:57,029 --> 00:28:55,039
unacceptable it was unacceptable

814
00:28:58,630 --> 00:28:57,039
and obviously to have to get to a point

815
00:29:00,549 --> 00:28:58,640
where i'd be like okay this

816
00:29:02,710 --> 00:29:00,559
you know these people don't hold the

817
00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:02,720
same views as me but they're good people

818
00:29:07,750 --> 00:29:06,320
and they accept who i am and they accept

819
00:29:10,470 --> 00:29:07,760
our differences

820
00:29:11,990 --> 00:29:10,480
but there are people who just don't and

821
00:29:15,350 --> 00:29:12,000
they're just sexist or racist

822
00:29:17,269 --> 00:29:15,360
or something so when i met him and he

823
00:29:17,590 --> 00:29:17,279
was giving he was telling me these views

824
00:29:27,909 --> 00:29:17,600
i

825
00:29:30,389 --> 00:29:27,919
hate

826
00:29:31,430 --> 00:29:30,399
but anyone so we must be able to get to

827
00:29:35,029 --> 00:29:31,440
an understanding

828
00:29:36,950 --> 00:29:35,039
here um rather than being reactionary i

829
00:29:38,789 --> 00:29:36,960
was like just kind of digging

830
00:29:40,549 --> 00:29:38,799
but then it got to a point where i got

831
00:29:42,389 --> 00:29:40,559
really scared of digging

832
00:29:43,590 --> 00:29:42,399
because i really didn't know i didn't

833
00:29:46,950 --> 00:29:43,600
want to hear what

834
00:29:47,669 --> 00:29:46,960
i might say and i just stopped and that

835
00:29:50,789 --> 00:29:47,679
i think

836
00:29:53,029 --> 00:29:50,799
is i'm a little bit shocked

837
00:29:54,070 --> 00:29:53,039
by that reaction because that's not how

838
00:30:01,750 --> 00:29:54,080
i

839
00:30:05,430 --> 00:30:01,760
degree and

840
00:30:08,470 --> 00:30:05,440
were you starting to see things that

841
00:30:09,830 --> 00:30:08,480
you didn't want to learn more about so

842
00:30:11,590 --> 00:30:09,840
you felt like there was something there

843
00:30:13,190 --> 00:30:11,600
or was it a conscious decision

844
00:30:15,430 --> 00:30:13,200
or do you think you just kind of shied

845
00:30:17,590 --> 00:30:15,440
away from it interesting i think

846
00:30:18,470 --> 00:30:17,600
you know i'd call friends or family or

847
00:30:19,269 --> 00:30:18,480
they'd call me and they'd be like oh

848
00:30:20,950 --> 00:30:19,279
how's it going

849
00:30:22,549 --> 00:30:20,960
with a guy you've been really excited

850
00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:22,559
about it and i'd be like

851
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:24,480
oh great yeah we did this we had all

852
00:30:28,870 --> 00:30:25,600
this fun

853
00:30:31,590 --> 00:30:28,880
oh yeah but he hates jews

854
00:30:32,230 --> 00:30:31,600
and i just kind of know ha ha no that

855
00:30:35,909 --> 00:30:32,240
can't be

856
00:30:40,149 --> 00:30:35,919
it's not real

857
00:30:41,350 --> 00:30:40,159
who does that i i've met ray

858
00:30:42,710 --> 00:30:41,360
you know i've met people who hate black

859
00:30:44,310 --> 00:30:42,720
people i've met people who you know from

860
00:30:45,269 --> 00:30:44,320
the uk i've met lots of people who hate

861
00:30:47,669 --> 00:30:45,279
muslims

862
00:30:49,269 --> 00:30:47,679
you know i've i've been around racists

863
00:30:50,549 --> 00:30:49,279
and and you know i think

864
00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:50,559
largely think they're deplorable or

865
00:30:57,830 --> 00:30:54,399
clueless but i just it was it's so

866
00:30:59,269 --> 00:30:57,840
it for me anti-semitism is so out there

867
00:31:02,789 --> 00:30:59,279
that it just doesn't

868
00:31:05,909 --> 00:31:02,799
make any sense yeah it's

869
00:31:08,389 --> 00:31:05,919
no it does i mean it's like he's joking

870
00:31:10,950 --> 00:31:08,399
it's uh you know it's almost like you

871
00:31:13,029 --> 00:31:10,960
can't take it seriously because it's so

872
00:31:14,789 --> 00:31:13,039
so extreme and he seems like otherwise

873
00:31:17,430 --> 00:31:14,799
like such a nice guy

874
00:31:18,549 --> 00:31:17,440
i have some friends uh from britain who

875
00:31:21,029 --> 00:31:18,559
who would make

876
00:31:21,669 --> 00:31:21,039
uh jokes that are very kind of uh i

877
00:31:24,310 --> 00:31:21,679
don't know

878
00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:24,320
risky in in sense that they they flirt

879
00:31:28,710 --> 00:31:26,640
around the edges of racism

880
00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:28,720
uh and you know that it's just been

881
00:31:34,070 --> 00:31:30,240
making a very very bad taste

882
00:31:36,710 --> 00:31:34,080
joke and the the they're not racist

883
00:31:37,909 --> 00:31:36,720
but then what if they are you know it's

884
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:37,919
it's

885
00:31:46,549 --> 00:31:42,720
way to feel other people out

886
00:31:48,310 --> 00:31:46,559
if you if you frame it as a joke and you

887
00:31:49,350 --> 00:31:48,320
say oh it's always all the jews who are

888
00:31:51,990 --> 00:31:49,360
behind us

889
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:52,000
or whatever and you make a joke about it

890
00:31:55,990 --> 00:31:52,720
and then you can

891
00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:56,000
engage someone's reaction yeah and then

892
00:32:01,909 --> 00:31:58,559
you get plausible deniability

893
00:32:04,710 --> 00:32:01,919
um and he loved american culture

894
00:32:05,350 --> 00:32:04,720
and he in it you know when he was a

895
00:32:07,430 --> 00:32:05,360
teenager

896
00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:07,440
like a lot of spanish youth uh was a

897
00:32:10,470 --> 00:32:08,640
communist

898
00:32:11,750 --> 00:32:10,480
so i i just presumed he had kind of

899
00:32:16,789 --> 00:32:11,760
similar

900
00:32:20,070 --> 00:32:16,799
didn't necessarily want to express

901
00:32:23,110 --> 00:32:20,080
them um so much

902
00:32:23,750 --> 00:32:23,120
um and what i really liked about him was

903
00:32:25,750 --> 00:32:23,760
that he

904
00:32:28,070 --> 00:32:25,760
would come up with these like just

905
00:32:29,909 --> 00:32:28,080
ridiculous just ridiculous ideas

906
00:32:31,269 --> 00:32:29,919
um that he'd kind of just been thinking

907
00:32:32,950 --> 00:32:31,279
about for a while what i really liked

908
00:32:34,870 --> 00:32:32,960
about him

909
00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:34,880
and even at the end when he explained

910
00:32:38,389 --> 00:32:36,480
everything to me and it was shocking

911
00:32:41,190 --> 00:32:38,399
it was like he'd really gotten to the

912
00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:41,200
bottom of what conspiracy theories were

913
00:32:44,310 --> 00:32:43,120
he wasn't flirting with the edges he

914
00:32:47,430 --> 00:32:44,320
wasn't like

915
00:32:48,389 --> 00:32:47,440
you know some some biden pedophile over

916
00:32:50,950 --> 00:32:48,399
here and

917
00:32:51,750 --> 00:32:50,960
you know and uh you know i don't like

918
00:32:54,389 --> 00:32:51,760
the state of israel

919
00:32:56,310 --> 00:32:54,399
he you know or you know what was it

920
00:32:59,350 --> 00:32:56,320
something about returning to the gold

921
00:33:02,470 --> 00:32:59,360
standard that one was strange but

922
00:33:04,630 --> 00:33:02,480
when he really got down to it he knew it

923
00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:04,640
was all about anti-semitism

924
00:33:09,669 --> 00:33:06,880
and he was like and that and so he had

925
00:33:11,029 --> 00:33:09,679
really analyzed conspiracy theories to

926
00:33:14,070 --> 00:33:11,039
their end point

927
00:33:14,870 --> 00:33:14,080
and he didn't need me to to try and dig

928
00:33:17,029 --> 00:33:14,880
for him

929
00:33:19,269 --> 00:33:17,039
he got it and he completely accepted

930
00:33:20,950 --> 00:33:19,279
this as his world view

931
00:33:22,310 --> 00:33:20,960
so when you talk about conspiracy

932
00:33:25,269 --> 00:33:22,320
theories a lot of people talk about

933
00:33:25,830 --> 00:33:25,279
you know somewhat extreme things like uh

934
00:33:28,230 --> 00:33:25,840
you know

935
00:33:28,870 --> 00:33:28,240
about chemtrails and things like that or

936
00:33:32,470 --> 00:33:28,880
uh

937
00:33:34,230 --> 00:33:32,480
the idea that 911 was an inside job or

938
00:33:35,750 --> 00:33:34,240
or even things like people are being

939
00:33:36,950 --> 00:33:35,760
secretly microchipped and things like

940
00:33:39,430 --> 00:33:36,960
that extreme things

941
00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:39,440
and what you're talking about here seems

942
00:33:43,830 --> 00:33:40,720
to be more about the

943
00:33:47,430 --> 00:33:43,840
idea that there's some vast plot to

944
00:33:49,350 --> 00:33:47,440
change the world by changing culture

945
00:33:51,110 --> 00:33:49,360
and did did he talk about these these

946
00:33:53,029 --> 00:33:51,120
more extreme conspiracy theories

947
00:33:54,710 --> 00:33:53,039
as well like things like like i don't

948
00:33:58,070 --> 00:33:54,720
know like 911 being a

949
00:33:59,350 --> 00:33:58,080
an inside job no so it started with

950
00:34:01,669 --> 00:33:59,360
coronavirus

951
00:34:02,710 --> 00:34:01,679
and then i was i've been reading a

952
00:34:04,389 --> 00:34:02,720
really nice

953
00:34:06,149 --> 00:34:04,399
easy philosophy book he was like oh

954
00:34:08,470 --> 00:34:06,159
we're talking about philosophy okay

955
00:34:10,149 --> 00:34:08,480
let's go in and it was just conspiracy

956
00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:10,159
theory after conspiracy theory after

957
00:34:13,909 --> 00:34:11,520
conspiracy theory

958
00:34:14,790 --> 00:34:13,919
but none of it was about was about kind

959
00:34:18,710 --> 00:34:14,800
of the usual

960
00:34:20,869 --> 00:34:18,720
911 moon landings fluoride in water

961
00:34:23,030 --> 00:34:20,879
any of the ones i was familiar with it

962
00:34:27,669 --> 00:34:23,040
was anti-eu

963
00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:27,679
it was fear fear of joe biden becoming

964
00:34:32,149 --> 00:34:29,040
president

965
00:34:35,589 --> 00:34:32,159
he cried when trump when trump

966
00:34:38,550 --> 00:34:35,599
lost well yeah

967
00:34:39,430 --> 00:34:38,560
so is is the idea there that uh i think

968
00:34:42,550 --> 00:34:39,440
i think you mentioned the

969
00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:42,560
that he felt that there's a or you wrote

970
00:34:46,629 --> 00:34:45,200
a a kind of mass cultural push by the us

971
00:34:49,750 --> 00:34:46,639
to destroy the culture of

972
00:34:52,389 --> 00:34:49,760
european states like why is the us

973
00:34:52,869 --> 00:34:52,399
trying to destroy european states

974
00:34:56,310 --> 00:34:52,879
because

975
00:35:00,470 --> 00:34:56,320
he i don't know he i i don't

976
00:35:03,349 --> 00:35:00,480
do something about a jewish cabal

977
00:35:04,870 --> 00:35:03,359
something about it nothing made sense

978
00:35:06,550 --> 00:35:04,880
something about a jewish kebab

979
00:35:10,230 --> 00:35:06,560
something about taking over spain

980
00:35:14,230 --> 00:35:11,750
i would have thought if anybody would be

981
00:35:17,589 --> 00:35:14,240
uh breaking up the eu

982
00:35:20,150 --> 00:35:17,599
it would be russia i mean

983
00:35:21,750 --> 00:35:20,160
but i mean it depends you can think

984
00:35:23,829 --> 00:35:21,760
about it i mean

985
00:35:25,270 --> 00:35:23,839
you can think about it in a way that if

986
00:35:27,510 --> 00:35:25,280
you don't want another if you don't want

987
00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:27,520
a liberalizing power block i mean the eu

988
00:35:32,470 --> 00:35:29,760
is the only power block left

989
00:35:33,510 --> 00:35:32,480
where they are promoting human rights um

990
00:35:37,349 --> 00:35:33,520
and they have some

991
00:35:40,790 --> 00:35:37,359
they have some form of capitalism

992
00:35:42,310 --> 00:35:40,800
that tries to spread equality and

993
00:35:44,150 --> 00:35:42,320
maybe people some people in america want

994
00:35:46,470 --> 00:35:44,160
to break that up because

995
00:35:48,230 --> 00:35:46,480
i don't i don't know i mean but yeah

996
00:35:50,310 --> 00:35:48,240
absolutely if you're thinking about

997
00:35:52,710 --> 00:35:50,320
if anybody wants to break up the eu as a

998
00:35:54,870 --> 00:35:52,720
power block it would probably be russia

999
00:35:56,870 --> 00:35:54,880
uh russian government or even chinese

1000
00:36:00,030 --> 00:35:56,880
government so there's not a

1001
00:36:01,910 --> 00:36:00,040
yeah yeah definitely of how they govern

1002
00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:01,920
undemocratically

1003
00:36:05,910 --> 00:36:04,400
and why would why would biden be more of

1004
00:36:09,270 --> 00:36:05,920
a threat than trump

1005
00:36:09,990 --> 00:36:09,280
in that regard now this i never because

1006
00:36:12,870 --> 00:36:10,000
i was just

1007
00:36:15,030 --> 00:36:12,880
too frightened to get into it because it

1008
00:36:18,390 --> 00:36:15,040
didn't make any sense to me

1009
00:36:20,630 --> 00:36:18,400
it was really q inspired that

1010
00:36:22,470 --> 00:36:20,640
biden was a pedophile and biden was

1011
00:36:23,270 --> 00:36:22,480
working it was something about biden

1012
00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:23,280
working with

1013
00:36:29,910 --> 00:36:27,280
the pedophile rings of jewish people

1014
00:36:31,510 --> 00:36:29,920
okay everything for him came back to the

1015
00:36:34,630 --> 00:36:31,520
jews from what i can gather

1016
00:36:36,470 --> 00:36:34,640
yeah now the pedophile rings of jewish

1017
00:36:38,310 --> 00:36:36,480
jewish people was was this this

1018
00:36:40,390 --> 00:36:38,320
pedophile aspect something that he he

1019
00:36:42,630 --> 00:36:40,400
felt was permeating everything

1020
00:36:43,829 --> 00:36:42,640
or was it just like in america or

1021
00:36:45,589 --> 00:36:43,839
something like that

1022
00:36:47,109 --> 00:36:45,599
it seemed to be really american-centered

1023
00:36:48,550 --> 00:36:47,119
it didn't seem like it was affecting

1024
00:36:49,030 --> 00:36:48,560
spain the only way it was affecting

1025
00:36:53,190 --> 00:36:49,040
spain

1026
00:36:54,230 --> 00:36:53,200
actually all this information came out

1027
00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:54,240
and he was saying

1028
00:37:01,510 --> 00:36:58,000
some also joe biden joe biden

1029
00:37:02,390 --> 00:37:01,520
one wanted uh currency tied to the

1030
00:37:04,069 --> 00:37:02,400
dollar

1031
00:37:05,510 --> 00:37:04,079
he wanted to get rid of that and go back

1032
00:37:08,550 --> 00:37:05,520
to the gold standard

1033
00:37:11,349 --> 00:37:08,560
and i

1034
00:37:12,710 --> 00:37:11,359
it doesn't make any sense any sense so i

1035
00:37:14,710 --> 00:37:12,720
was like okay right i've got

1036
00:37:16,150 --> 00:37:14,720
some kind of very basic understanding of

1037
00:37:18,109 --> 00:37:16,160
the gold standard and that's what we had

1038
00:37:20,470 --> 00:37:18,119
in the

1039
00:37:23,990 --> 00:37:20,480
pre-1930s it was

1040
00:37:26,390 --> 00:37:24,000
the financial crisis was

1041
00:37:29,030 --> 00:37:26,400
the the gold standard was blamed for

1042
00:37:31,589 --> 00:37:29,040
that so then they changed

1043
00:37:32,710 --> 00:37:31,599
uh because it caused such big

1044
00:37:34,790 --> 00:37:32,720
fluctuations

1045
00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:34,800
that's what i was told that i was told

1046
00:37:37,589 --> 00:37:36,640
that's what i what i learned many years

1047
00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:37,599
ago

1048
00:37:40,950 --> 00:37:39,680
so i don't understand what his ideas

1049
00:37:41,589 --> 00:37:40,960
were and he was like you have to buy

1050
00:37:44,710 --> 00:37:41,599
gold

1051
00:37:46,470 --> 00:37:44,720
it's the most important thing

1052
00:37:48,550 --> 00:37:46,480
yeah and that's a common thing it's kind

1053
00:37:51,190 --> 00:37:48,560
of like a libertarian thing in the

1054
00:37:53,109 --> 00:37:51,200
states like uh financial independence

1055
00:37:55,510 --> 00:37:53,119
and people like the idea of gold

1056
00:37:56,230 --> 00:37:55,520
standard versus uh fiat money which is

1057
00:37:57,990 --> 00:37:56,240
uh

1058
00:37:59,589 --> 00:37:58,000
you know the the idea of money just

1059
00:38:01,510 --> 00:37:59,599
being created out of thin air which is

1060
00:38:02,550 --> 00:38:01,520
what essentially what we have now

1061
00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:02,560
i think the problem with the gold

1062
00:38:06,470 --> 00:38:04,400
standard was that there's only so much

1063
00:38:06,790 --> 00:38:06,480
gold and so there was there's issues

1064
00:38:12,630 --> 00:38:06,800
with

1065
00:38:14,550 --> 00:38:12,640
enough money for the economy to work

1066
00:38:16,069 --> 00:38:14,560
but of course everybody views coming off

1067
00:38:18,710 --> 00:38:16,079
the gold standard as being this

1068
00:38:19,910 --> 00:38:18,720
huge money-grabbing thing by i guess the

1069
00:38:22,069 --> 00:38:19,920
jews

1070
00:38:23,829 --> 00:38:22,079
uh because that that's what the whole

1071
00:38:25,589 --> 00:38:23,839
conspiracy theory is is that the the

1072
00:38:27,589 --> 00:38:25,599
jews run the banking system

1073
00:38:29,510 --> 00:38:27,599
and they took us off the gold standard

1074
00:38:31,750 --> 00:38:29,520
and there's this huge long-term

1075
00:38:34,710 --> 00:38:31,760
conspiracy that's been going on for

1076
00:38:35,430 --> 00:38:34,720
for decades but it's it's interesting

1077
00:38:39,430 --> 00:38:35,440
you know with your

1078
00:38:42,630 --> 00:38:39,440
your friends um ideas of

1079
00:38:44,829 --> 00:38:42,640
biden being more harmful and things like

1080
00:38:47,589 --> 00:38:44,839
that it seems very much like he's been

1081
00:38:50,790 --> 00:38:47,599
influenced uh very much by

1082
00:38:53,349 --> 00:38:50,800
by his readings on things like 8chan

1083
00:38:54,390 --> 00:38:53,359
rather than than i guess local

1084
00:38:56,550 --> 00:38:54,400
conspiracy theories

1085
00:38:58,230 --> 00:38:56,560
is there like a local conspiracy theory

1086
00:39:01,589 --> 00:38:58,240
culture is the other

1087
00:39:02,630 --> 00:39:01,599
other spanish language discussion boards

1088
00:39:04,470 --> 00:39:02,640
for that type of thing

1089
00:39:05,990 --> 00:39:04,480
well i don't know much about this but i

1090
00:39:09,109 --> 00:39:06,000
do know that

1091
00:39:09,510 --> 00:39:09,119
i i know i believe that a big part of

1092
00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:09,520
his

1093
00:39:14,230 --> 00:39:12,160
friendship group is based on the sharing

1094
00:39:17,670 --> 00:39:14,240
of these conspiracy theories

1095
00:39:19,670 --> 00:39:17,680
and he showed me uh a website in spanish

1096
00:39:21,750 --> 00:39:19,680
talking about this this stuff that his

1097
00:39:24,310 --> 00:39:21,760
friend had sent him

1098
00:39:25,910 --> 00:39:24,320
and um and i remember being like what

1099
00:39:27,670 --> 00:39:25,920
source is that and he was like just a

1100
00:39:30,069 --> 00:39:27,680
guy's blog in spanish and i went

1101
00:39:32,230 --> 00:39:30,079
well then how do you know it's true

1102
00:39:34,470 --> 00:39:32,240
because it's just a guy and he was like

1103
00:39:36,310 --> 00:39:34,480
well why you know and his argument was

1104
00:39:39,430 --> 00:39:36,320
why would it be less true

1105
00:39:43,190 --> 00:39:39,440
than than a

1106
00:39:45,990 --> 00:39:43,200
a peer reviewed journal or a newspaper

1107
00:39:46,470 --> 00:39:46,000
but again i let it go but so i do

1108
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:46,480
believe

1109
00:39:53,430 --> 00:39:50,240
there are there are spanish spanish

1110
00:39:53,829 --> 00:39:53,440
language conspiracy theories um going

1111
00:39:57,270 --> 00:39:53,839
around

1112
00:40:00,550 --> 00:39:57,280
but he but his experience was

1113
00:40:02,069 --> 00:40:00,560
was largely in english

1114
00:40:04,150 --> 00:40:02,079
right but his one of his friends speak

1115
00:40:06,069 --> 00:40:04,160
spanish so i presume

1116
00:40:08,950 --> 00:40:06,079
i presume there must be some spanish

1117
00:40:10,309 --> 00:40:08,960
language stuff going around

1118
00:40:12,309 --> 00:40:10,319
so when you when you talk about his

1119
00:40:14,710 --> 00:40:12,319
group of friends he's like his

1120
00:40:16,230 --> 00:40:14,720
his old like school friends or people he

1121
00:40:17,430 --> 00:40:16,240
grew up with or there's like a new group

1122
00:40:20,710 --> 00:40:17,440
of people that he's

1123
00:40:22,150 --> 00:40:20,720
people he grew up with all played games

1124
00:40:23,829 --> 00:40:22,160
together from what i can tell

1125
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:23,839
and played sports together and smoked

1126
00:40:27,990 --> 00:40:25,520
weed together

1127
00:40:29,349 --> 00:40:28,000
and they they're all similar in this

1128
00:40:32,550 --> 00:40:29,359
kind of belief of this

1129
00:40:34,870 --> 00:40:32,560
vast jewish conspiracy i believe so

1130
00:40:36,309 --> 00:40:34,880
fascinating i mean there's lots of

1131
00:40:39,589 --> 00:40:36,319
things i didn't ask about

1132
00:40:41,910 --> 00:40:39,599
um out of worry

1133
00:40:43,430 --> 00:40:41,920
that yeah what the answer would be so

1134
00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:43,440
how did how did things come to a head

1135
00:40:48,470 --> 00:40:43,920
for

1136
00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:48,480
broken it off now how did

1137
00:40:58,150 --> 00:40:53,200
how did that come about um

1138
00:41:00,790 --> 00:40:58,160
he he said something

1139
00:41:03,190 --> 00:41:00,800
i he after we had the conversation where

1140
00:41:06,710 --> 00:41:03,200
he told me about the gold standard

1141
00:41:07,670 --> 00:41:06,720
and he and he told me about taking over

1142
00:41:10,150 --> 00:41:07,680
spain and breaking

1143
00:41:11,430 --> 00:41:10,160
america breaking up the eu but again it

1144
00:41:14,470 --> 00:41:11,440
was never the jews

1145
00:41:14,790 --> 00:41:14,480
he never specifically said the jews and

1146
00:41:31,990 --> 00:41:14,800
i

1147
00:41:35,349 --> 00:41:32,000
okay

1148
00:41:38,309 --> 00:41:35,359
um so that shocked me

1149
00:41:39,589 --> 00:41:38,319
and i i pulled back and that's when i

1150
00:41:43,030 --> 00:41:39,599
became

1151
00:41:47,030 --> 00:41:43,040
relatively heavily invested in

1152
00:41:50,150 --> 00:41:47,040
how to talk to someone to try and

1153
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:50,160
convince them otherwise and

1154
00:41:53,430 --> 00:41:51,920
how can i come from a place of

1155
00:41:55,190 --> 00:41:53,440
understanding

1156
00:41:57,349 --> 00:41:55,200
like i did in vietnam how can i come

1157
00:41:59,910 --> 00:41:57,359
from a place of understanding

1158
00:42:01,349 --> 00:41:59,920
where i can maybe shift their their

1159
00:42:02,950 --> 00:42:01,359
ideas a little bit and make them think

1160
00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:02,960
in a different way

1161
00:42:06,630 --> 00:42:05,040
not make them you know make them

1162
00:42:08,390 --> 00:42:06,640
question certain beliefs

1163
00:42:10,390 --> 00:42:08,400
when i was in vietnam i would just kind

1164
00:42:12,790 --> 00:42:10,400
of talk about things in

1165
00:42:14,150 --> 00:42:12,800
a calm logical way and give people facts

1166
00:42:16,309 --> 00:42:14,160
and ideas and

1167
00:42:18,309 --> 00:42:16,319
and philosophical ideas about you know

1168
00:42:18,550 --> 00:42:18,319
human rights and respecting each other

1169
00:42:21,349 --> 00:42:18,560
and

1170
00:42:22,150 --> 00:42:21,359
oh that's a really interesting point i

1171
00:42:25,589 --> 00:42:22,160
don't know

1172
00:42:29,750 --> 00:42:25,599
you know trying to find ways

1173
00:42:30,710 --> 00:42:29,760
to to change his mind in some way it

1174
00:42:34,870 --> 00:42:30,720
felt

1175
00:42:38,870 --> 00:42:34,880
fruitless because i couldn't come at him

1176
00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:38,880
with with facts

1177
00:42:42,710 --> 00:42:41,119
because he was resistance to them or

1178
00:42:48,069 --> 00:42:42,720
yeah

1179
00:42:49,030 --> 00:42:48,079
realized the seriousness of his ideas

1180
00:42:51,589 --> 00:42:49,040
even though he didn't

1181
00:42:52,470 --> 00:42:51,599
want to tell me outright or all these

1182
00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:52,480
theories

1183
00:42:55,990 --> 00:42:55,440
and and his belief system he didn't

1184
00:42:59,349 --> 00:42:56,000
think

1185
00:43:01,670 --> 00:42:59,359
were that serious

1186
00:43:02,550 --> 00:43:01,680
uh so it came to a head it actually came

1187
00:43:05,030 --> 00:43:02,560
to it came

1188
00:43:07,270 --> 00:43:05,040
that was a big reason so i really

1189
00:43:09,510 --> 00:43:07,280
stepped back and i was really

1190
00:43:10,550 --> 00:43:09,520
and i was making myself unhappy trying

1191
00:43:13,030 --> 00:43:10,560
to think of ways

1192
00:43:14,470 --> 00:43:13,040
i could navigate this situation but

1193
00:43:15,349 --> 00:43:14,480
still be around him because i really

1194
00:43:17,510 --> 00:43:15,359
liked him

1195
00:43:18,950 --> 00:43:17,520
because you know be clear like on a date

1196
00:43:22,069 --> 00:43:18,960
you know on a personal level

1197
00:43:25,430 --> 00:43:22,079
he was great but he

1198
00:43:25,990 --> 00:43:25,440
he um had a really stressful day and he

1199
00:43:28,150 --> 00:43:26,000
wasn't

1200
00:43:29,510 --> 00:43:28,160
i don't think he regulated emotions and

1201
00:43:30,630 --> 00:43:29,520
what really brought it to a head for me

1202
00:43:32,870 --> 00:43:30,640
was he said something

1203
00:43:34,870 --> 00:43:32,880
uh aggressive about one of his family

1204
00:43:37,750 --> 00:43:34,880
members and he was venting to me

1205
00:43:39,430 --> 00:43:37,760
but it was really frightening to hear so

1206
00:43:42,069 --> 00:43:39,440
that's when i was like

1207
00:43:43,109 --> 00:43:42,079
whoa okay i really really need to think

1208
00:43:45,990 --> 00:43:43,119
about what i'm doing

1209
00:43:47,270 --> 00:43:46,000
and that made me kind of go okay i've

1210
00:43:48,710 --> 00:43:47,280
been really stressed and i've been

1211
00:43:50,630 --> 00:43:48,720
stressing myself out

1212
00:43:52,069 --> 00:43:50,640
over some guy i haven't been dating for

1213
00:43:53,510 --> 00:43:52,079
very long and this shouldn't be

1214
00:43:54,710 --> 00:43:53,520
happening

1215
00:43:56,550 --> 00:43:54,720
so that's when i stepped back and i

1216
00:43:59,109 --> 00:43:56,560
really was like right i need to

1217
00:44:01,030 --> 00:43:59,119
address what all these things that are

1218
00:44:03,270 --> 00:44:01,040
really worrying me about him

1219
00:44:05,589 --> 00:44:03,280
um and that's when i took some time out

1220
00:44:07,510 --> 00:44:05,599
and then i had i addressed and i said

1221
00:44:09,109 --> 00:44:07,520
i actually just said to him what do you

1222
00:44:13,190 --> 00:44:09,119
think of jews

1223
00:44:15,910 --> 00:44:13,200
and that's when it just all came out wow

1224
00:44:17,670 --> 00:44:15,920
so did he he could have explained to you

1225
00:44:18,230 --> 00:44:17,680
the full conspiracy theory at that point

1226
00:44:21,270 --> 00:44:18,240
like

1227
00:44:21,990 --> 00:44:21,280
his full belief system he explained to

1228
00:44:26,630 --> 00:44:22,000
me

1229
00:44:30,710 --> 00:44:26,640
um the the basis of his conspiracy

1230
00:44:32,150 --> 00:44:30,720
it started from a hatred of israel

1231
00:44:34,150 --> 00:44:32,160
um so you know it started from a

1232
00:44:35,430 --> 00:44:34,160
contested territory and there are lots

1233
00:44:38,309 --> 00:44:35,440
of people

1234
00:44:39,750 --> 00:44:38,319
who disagree with the state of israel

1235
00:44:42,470 --> 00:44:39,760
and that's what i said i was like

1236
00:44:43,589 --> 00:44:42,480
yeah absolutely like a lot of people in

1237
00:44:46,630 --> 00:44:43,599
the uk are uk

1238
00:44:49,990 --> 00:44:46,640
particularly anti-israel but

1239
00:44:50,630 --> 00:44:50,000
um for him that that wasn't enough it

1240
00:44:57,670 --> 00:44:50,640
was a

1241
00:45:01,430 --> 00:44:57,680
zionists were evil um

1242
00:45:04,630 --> 00:45:01,440
and they had they had colluded

1243
00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:04,640
with national governments to

1244
00:45:09,109 --> 00:45:07,910
to fake the holocaust to

1245
00:45:12,710 --> 00:45:09,119
[Music]

1246
00:45:16,309 --> 00:45:12,720
to um falsify sources

1247
00:45:20,069 --> 00:45:16,319
to work with universities

1248
00:45:23,670 --> 00:45:20,079
in america and pay universities to

1249
00:45:26,870 --> 00:45:23,680
create false primary sources

1250
00:45:29,990 --> 00:45:26,880
um florians were in on it um

1251
00:45:33,589 --> 00:45:30,000
everyone was in on it and

1252
00:45:35,109 --> 00:45:33,599
um i think i i mean

1253
00:45:37,190 --> 00:45:35,119
when it got to a point where he was

1254
00:45:39,109 --> 00:45:37,200
denying the holocaust

1255
00:45:40,950 --> 00:45:39,119
and denying the numbers the number of

1256
00:45:41,990 --> 00:45:40,960
jews being killed and denying the

1257
00:45:46,950 --> 00:45:42,000
existence of gas

1258
00:45:49,349 --> 00:45:46,960
chambers yeah i that is something

1259
00:45:51,510 --> 00:45:49,359
i've never had to encounter and hope i

1260
00:45:54,550 --> 00:45:51,520
never have to encounter again

1261
00:45:55,349 --> 00:45:54,560
uh it was really really shocking yeah it

1262
00:45:58,470 --> 00:45:55,359
must have been

1263
00:46:05,030 --> 00:45:58,480
uh very disappointing

1264
00:46:09,829 --> 00:46:08,230
yes that's an understatement there

1265
00:46:12,230 --> 00:46:09,839
it's just like oh wow what do i do with

1266
00:46:14,550 --> 00:46:12,240
this and i was so in shock i just

1267
00:46:18,630 --> 00:46:14,560
couldn't even say anything

1268
00:46:20,309 --> 00:46:18,640
um and i i just was like

1269
00:46:22,710 --> 00:46:20,319
i just remember him talking and talking

1270
00:46:25,670 --> 00:46:22,720
and talking and i just went that's a lot

1271
00:46:26,550 --> 00:46:25,680
for me to take in and i was like i just

1272
00:46:28,790 --> 00:46:26,560
want

1273
00:46:29,990 --> 00:46:28,800
you to know i think i just spent

1274
00:46:31,829 --> 00:46:30,000
something like i just want you to know

1275
00:46:33,829 --> 00:46:31,839
that i really believe in the historical

1276
00:46:36,950 --> 00:46:33,839
method

1277
00:46:41,270 --> 00:46:39,190
you know and i was just like yeah i mean

1278
00:46:44,150 --> 00:46:41,280
i was a history undergraduate

1279
00:46:46,150 --> 00:46:44,160
right yeah you know i'm not in any way

1280
00:46:48,550 --> 00:46:46,160
an expert but i do

1281
00:46:49,190 --> 00:46:48,560
historiography you know i do think it

1282
00:46:53,670 --> 00:46:49,200
has its

1283
00:46:56,950 --> 00:46:53,680
um plus points i do think that

1284
00:46:58,069 --> 00:46:56,960
don't do a good job what do you think he

1285
00:47:00,069 --> 00:46:58,079
thinks of you

1286
00:47:01,109 --> 00:47:00,079
uh like does he think that you are being

1287
00:47:03,270 --> 00:47:01,119
brainwashed

1288
00:47:04,390 --> 00:47:03,280
and does he try to help you see the

1289
00:47:07,990 --> 00:47:04,400
light

1290
00:47:09,109 --> 00:47:08,000
no no he always he from the moment he

1291
00:47:10,150 --> 00:47:09,119
met me he said he really liked me

1292
00:47:11,990 --> 00:47:10,160
because he thought i was intelligent

1293
00:47:15,109 --> 00:47:12,000
that's always a nice compliment

1294
00:47:18,230 --> 00:47:15,119
um and he always framed

1295
00:47:21,430 --> 00:47:18,240
he always framed conversations in a way

1296
00:47:23,349 --> 00:47:21,440
where it it was we are different but

1297
00:47:26,390 --> 00:47:23,359
we're learning from each other

1298
00:47:28,309 --> 00:47:26,400
um and he you know he knew that i was

1299
00:47:30,230 --> 00:47:28,319
really passionate about education about

1300
00:47:34,069 --> 00:47:30,240
further education

1301
00:47:35,589 --> 00:47:34,079
if i could i would do a phd you know

1302
00:47:37,109 --> 00:47:35,599
and so so he knew that about me from the

1303
00:47:40,630 --> 00:47:37,119
beginning so he already knew

1304
00:47:43,589 --> 00:47:40,640
that that i really believed in

1305
00:47:45,750 --> 00:47:43,599
learning i really believed in the

1306
00:47:49,430 --> 00:47:45,760
logical structures we used to make

1307
00:47:52,549 --> 00:47:49,440
arguments in education

1308
00:47:55,510 --> 00:47:52,559
and enlightenment thinking and the idea

1309
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:55,520
you know and philosophical structuring

1310
00:47:58,390 --> 00:47:56,960
of ideas and

1311
00:48:00,069 --> 00:47:58,400
the importance of evidence in history

1312
00:48:02,950 --> 00:48:00,079
i'm not making much sense

1313
00:48:04,790 --> 00:48:02,960
he knew that this was this was important

1314
00:48:08,230 --> 00:48:04,800
to me

1315
00:48:11,030 --> 00:48:08,240
so yeah and what i found interesting was

1316
00:48:15,030 --> 00:48:11,040
that he described himself as a skeptic

1317
00:48:18,470 --> 00:48:15,040
yes yes yes like a holocaust skeptic

1318
00:48:21,750 --> 00:48:18,480
so this was new to me um and but he

1319
00:48:27,270 --> 00:48:21,760
but he but the skepticism was about

1320
00:48:30,710 --> 00:48:27,280
researching alone on specific websites

1321
00:48:31,349 --> 00:48:30,720
and reading other people who had spoken

1322
00:48:34,790 --> 00:48:31,359
about this

1323
00:48:36,309 --> 00:48:34,800
the questioning of the fit how many jews

1324
00:48:37,670 --> 00:48:36,319
were killed in the holocaust the

1325
00:48:40,390 --> 00:48:37,680
questioning of that figure

1326
00:48:42,230 --> 00:48:40,400
wasn't from analyzing i mean it wasn't

1327
00:48:43,750 --> 00:48:42,240
from analyzing any source materials it

1328
00:48:44,390 --> 00:48:43,760
was just somebody on the internet had

1329
00:48:49,109 --> 00:48:44,400
said that

1330
00:48:52,470 --> 00:48:49,119
whole do your own research

1331
00:48:53,910 --> 00:48:52,480
uh thing uh which people say

1332
00:48:55,270 --> 00:48:53,920
and it sounds good and if you could do

1333
00:48:55,589 --> 00:48:55,280
your own research that would be great

1334
00:48:56,870 --> 00:48:55,599
but

1335
00:48:59,349 --> 00:48:56,880
they're not doing their own research

1336
00:49:01,670 --> 00:48:59,359
they're reading somebody else's research

1337
00:49:03,349 --> 00:49:01,680
so i guess like that was the end of it

1338
00:49:03,910 --> 00:49:03,359
after that so did you did you talk to

1339
00:49:07,910 --> 00:49:03,920
him again

1340
00:49:10,710 --> 00:49:07,920
after that no the first thing i did

1341
00:49:11,190 --> 00:49:10,720
i was in shock the first thing i did

1342
00:49:13,750 --> 00:49:11,200
after

1343
00:49:15,589 --> 00:49:13,760
because we were on the phone um so the

1344
00:49:16,630 --> 00:49:15,599
first thing i did was put down the phone

1345
00:49:20,710 --> 00:49:16,640
and call my brother

1346
00:49:22,790 --> 00:49:20,720
and say brother hi um

1347
00:49:23,670 --> 00:49:22,800
because he he knew some of the issues

1348
00:49:25,109 --> 00:49:23,680
and you know i was worried about the

1349
00:49:28,549 --> 00:49:25,119
conspiracy theories

1350
00:49:29,910 --> 00:49:28,559
um um and i i didn't

1351
00:49:31,829 --> 00:49:29,920
know what to do with it and he was

1352
00:49:34,390 --> 00:49:31,839
always really supportive he was like

1353
00:49:36,069 --> 00:49:34,400
look he's got some crazy ideas and that

1354
00:49:39,109 --> 00:49:36,079
they're pretty negative but if

1355
00:49:42,150 --> 00:49:39,119
if if you're happy with him and and

1356
00:49:46,150 --> 00:49:42,160
he is kind to you and he is

1357
00:49:46,950 --> 00:49:46,160
as you know and he is um attentive and

1358
00:49:49,829 --> 00:49:46,960
sweet and

1359
00:49:52,150 --> 00:49:49,839
and fun to be around then i can't if

1360
00:49:54,950 --> 00:49:52,160
he's not harming anyone then i can't

1361
00:49:56,630 --> 00:49:54,960
say that you shouldn't see him um which

1362
00:49:58,150 --> 00:49:56,640
i thought was a nice refreshing take and

1363
00:50:01,109 --> 00:49:58,160
probably not something that i would

1364
00:50:02,309 --> 00:50:01,119
say to a loved one or friend um probably

1365
00:50:06,710 --> 00:50:02,319
more judgmental

1366
00:50:09,750 --> 00:50:06,720
but after after that i i because i still

1367
00:50:11,589 --> 00:50:09,760
even after that conversation after it

1368
00:50:14,069 --> 00:50:11,599
after he told me that i was like okay so

1369
00:50:17,270 --> 00:50:14,079
we're gonna see each other on sunday

1370
00:50:19,910 --> 00:50:17,280
i still wanted to spend time with him

1371
00:50:20,630 --> 00:50:19,920
and see him but i also knew that i

1372
00:50:22,390 --> 00:50:20,640
couldn't

1373
00:50:25,190 --> 00:50:22,400
so the first thing i did was call my

1374
00:50:28,630 --> 00:50:25,200
brother and say he's a holocaust denier

1375
00:50:31,910 --> 00:50:28,640
and um he just like erupted and was like

1376
00:50:35,910 --> 00:50:31,920
okay yeah yeah

1377
00:50:39,430 --> 00:50:35,920
that's it that's the line yeah yeah

1378
00:50:42,230 --> 00:50:39,440
there's and uh as soon as i

1379
00:50:42,870 --> 00:50:42,240
as soon as i told him i i can't see you

1380
00:50:45,670 --> 00:50:42,880
anymore

1381
00:50:47,670 --> 00:50:45,680
these are the reasons why and i framed

1382
00:50:51,270 --> 00:50:47,680
it around racism

1383
00:50:53,190 --> 00:50:51,280
and i framed it around it's really

1384
00:50:54,230 --> 00:50:53,200
stupid learning how to like read primary

1385
00:50:57,430 --> 00:50:54,240
sources

1386
00:51:00,309 --> 00:50:57,440
and look at the evidence yourself

1387
00:51:02,549 --> 00:51:00,319
and then form a conclusion and how

1388
00:51:04,470 --> 00:51:02,559
important that is and not to cherry

1389
00:51:06,150 --> 00:51:04,480
pick evidence that somebody else has

1390
00:51:09,670 --> 00:51:06,160
told you or

1391
00:51:11,349 --> 00:51:09,680
go on a belief system um

1392
00:51:13,750 --> 00:51:11,359
because you believe it to be right

1393
00:51:15,109 --> 00:51:13,760
that's not that's not how people do

1394
00:51:18,950 --> 00:51:15,119
history

1395
00:51:22,230 --> 00:51:18,960
you hope um yeah as soon as i messaged

1396
00:51:25,670 --> 00:51:22,240
him that i blocked him on everything

1397
00:51:29,670 --> 00:51:25,680
and uh felt considerably better

1398
00:51:31,910 --> 00:51:29,680
right yeah it's uh like this weight

1399
00:51:33,270 --> 00:51:31,920
yeah people people get that uh reaction

1400
00:51:36,309 --> 00:51:33,280
a lot i think like when

1401
00:51:38,630 --> 00:51:36,319
when they do finally you know

1402
00:51:40,309 --> 00:51:38,640
get rid of an issue like that that there

1403
00:51:44,470 --> 00:51:40,319
is a big weight

1404
00:51:45,510 --> 00:51:44,480
uh lifted off i think you know

1405
00:51:46,950 --> 00:51:45,520
it's very interesting for me this

1406
00:51:48,150 --> 00:51:46,960
discussion because i i often talk to

1407
00:51:48,950 --> 00:51:48,160
people who used to be conspiracy

1408
00:51:51,910 --> 00:51:48,960
theorists

1409
00:51:53,430 --> 00:51:51,920
and so i i come to it from perhaps an

1410
00:51:54,790 --> 00:51:53,440
optimistic perspective

1411
00:51:57,829 --> 00:51:54,800
in that these people got out of

1412
00:52:00,950 --> 00:51:57,839
conspiracism and i i wrote a book about

1413
00:52:03,270 --> 00:52:00,960
how to help people in that and some of

1414
00:52:05,030 --> 00:52:03,280
the advice i give

1415
00:52:06,950 --> 00:52:05,040
in helping people is kind of the things

1416
00:52:08,630 --> 00:52:06,960
that you were doing you were

1417
00:52:10,150 --> 00:52:08,640
you know talking to people intelligently

1418
00:52:11,829 --> 00:52:10,160
about things and encouraging them to

1419
00:52:14,309 --> 00:52:11,839
look at other sources and

1420
00:52:15,670 --> 00:52:14,319
uh you know the the the discussions you

1421
00:52:18,549 --> 00:52:15,680
had in vietnam sounded

1422
00:52:20,309 --> 00:52:18,559
like to some degree but productive that

1423
00:52:23,109 --> 00:52:20,319
people would actually uh

1424
00:52:23,910 --> 00:52:23,119
uh you know at least listen to you uh

1425
00:52:26,470 --> 00:52:23,920
but

1426
00:52:28,470 --> 00:52:26,480
i i think with with you and with with

1427
00:52:30,950 --> 00:52:28,480
sarah last week who i talked to

1428
00:52:33,829 --> 00:52:30,960
uh there are some people who are so deep

1429
00:52:35,990 --> 00:52:33,839
in that it's very very challenging i

1430
00:52:39,109 --> 00:52:36,000
think perhaps part of the challenge with

1431
00:52:41,270 --> 00:52:39,119
with with this guy uh was

1432
00:52:43,990 --> 00:52:41,280
was that he kind of had another support

1433
00:52:47,349 --> 00:52:44,000
structure with his friends

1434
00:52:49,670 --> 00:52:47,359
which made it very resilient made his

1435
00:52:51,349 --> 00:52:49,680
belief structure very resilient because

1436
00:52:53,109 --> 00:52:51,359
there's him and his friends who have

1437
00:52:55,430 --> 00:52:53,119
been together for

1438
00:52:56,630 --> 00:52:55,440
you know many many years and then

1439
00:52:59,670 --> 00:52:56,640
there's you

1440
00:53:02,549 --> 00:52:59,680
and i think it's very very difficult to

1441
00:53:04,150 --> 00:53:02,559
kind of go up against that and did you

1442
00:53:05,910 --> 00:53:04,160
feel like you made any progress at all

1443
00:53:09,750 --> 00:53:05,920
with him

1444
00:53:12,790 --> 00:53:09,760
no no no i hope

1445
00:53:14,549 --> 00:53:12,800
i hope i did in some way i i don't think

1446
00:53:15,589 --> 00:53:14,559
he's so deep that i think that's what

1447
00:53:17,750 --> 00:53:15,599
was shocking for me

1448
00:53:19,910 --> 00:53:17,760
i i don't think he was so deep that it

1449
00:53:22,549 --> 00:53:19,920
colored everything in his life

1450
00:53:24,630 --> 00:53:22,559
you know when i my presumption of

1451
00:53:26,549 --> 00:53:24,640
conspiracy theorists was that it takes

1452
00:53:28,390 --> 00:53:26,559
over your life and that's all you talk

1453
00:53:32,150 --> 00:53:28,400
about and think about you know it

1454
00:53:34,790 --> 00:53:32,160
it's the typical you sit on the computer

1455
00:53:36,069 --> 00:53:34,800
12 hours a day watching videos um you

1456
00:53:37,430 --> 00:53:36,079
know that these are the stories that

1457
00:53:39,910 --> 00:53:37,440
i've heard you know these

1458
00:53:41,190 --> 00:53:39,920
and so i mean that's why i was even

1459
00:53:42,230 --> 00:53:41,200
surprised that you'd want to talk to me

1460
00:53:45,430 --> 00:53:42,240
because i don't think

1461
00:53:48,230 --> 00:53:45,440
my situation is anywhere near

1462
00:53:49,030 --> 00:53:48,240
as as bad as a lot of other people who

1463
00:53:50,790 --> 00:53:49,040
have to live

1464
00:53:52,069 --> 00:53:50,800
with this with their family members or

1465
00:53:54,390 --> 00:53:52,079
people they love

1466
00:53:55,750 --> 00:53:54,400
um but he got on with his daily life he

1467
00:53:58,870 --> 00:53:55,760
was respect

1468
00:54:00,950 --> 00:53:58,880
you know he he worked he had friends he

1469
00:54:03,030 --> 00:54:00,960
was building a really nice life even

1470
00:54:03,829 --> 00:54:03,040
though he even though he cried when

1471
00:54:05,910 --> 00:54:03,839
biden came

1472
00:54:07,190 --> 00:54:05,920
in the next breath he was like yeah it

1473
00:54:08,150 --> 00:54:07,200
doesn't matter because i'm spamming you

1474
00:54:10,549 --> 00:54:08,160
know i'm spanish

1475
00:54:11,430 --> 00:54:10,559
i don't i don't live there like it's not

1476
00:54:12,630 --> 00:54:11,440
i was like it's not really going to

1477
00:54:13,990 --> 00:54:12,640
affect you though is it he was like yeah

1478
00:54:17,109 --> 00:54:14,000
not really it doesn't matter

1479
00:54:19,190 --> 00:54:17,119
so we had this healthy ability to put it

1480
00:54:22,069 --> 00:54:19,200
to one side

1481
00:54:23,030 --> 00:54:22,079
but it you know but it was the

1482
00:54:26,470 --> 00:54:23,040
fundamental

1483
00:54:29,510 --> 00:54:26,480
basics of of his reality

1484
00:54:30,549 --> 00:54:29,520
yeah yeah that could do anything maybe

1485
00:54:32,549 --> 00:54:30,559
if it was a new

1486
00:54:34,309 --> 00:54:32,559
a new obsession but it took over your

1487
00:54:37,349 --> 00:54:34,319
life you can undo it but

1488
00:54:40,710 --> 00:54:37,359
it felt like the very foundation of how

1489
00:54:43,829 --> 00:54:40,720
he understood the world around him

1490
00:54:45,750 --> 00:54:43,839
yeah really sad i would think you

1491
00:54:47,750 --> 00:54:45,760
probably did help to a degree because

1492
00:54:49,190 --> 00:54:47,760
you you just the encouragement that you

1493
00:54:51,270 --> 00:54:49,200
gave him for

1494
00:54:52,230 --> 00:54:51,280
um you know looking at primary sources

1495
00:54:55,589 --> 00:54:52,240
even though it kind of like

1496
00:54:58,150 --> 00:54:55,599
sounds a little bit uh a bit weak

1497
00:54:59,430 --> 00:54:58,160
uh it's it's actually you know it's very

1498
00:55:01,109 --> 00:54:59,440
very good advice

1499
00:55:02,630 --> 00:55:01,119
and because you have like a background

1500
00:55:05,750 --> 00:55:02,640
in history uh

1501
00:55:08,309 --> 00:55:05,760
i think he would people who are

1502
00:55:10,710 --> 00:55:08,319
conspiracy theorists reject things

1503
00:55:12,150 --> 00:55:10,720
immediately but they still hear what

1504
00:55:14,150 --> 00:55:12,160
you're saying

1505
00:55:15,349 --> 00:55:14,160
and over time it can actually have an

1506
00:55:18,150 --> 00:55:15,359
effect

1507
00:55:19,829 --> 00:55:18,160
uh but you know your relationship with

1508
00:55:21,109 --> 00:55:19,839
him was relatively short just a few

1509
00:55:23,430 --> 00:55:21,119
months

1510
00:55:24,950 --> 00:55:23,440
and and so you you probably were kind of

1511
00:55:26,710 --> 00:55:24,960
doomed from the start to be

1512
00:55:29,190 --> 00:55:26,720
to not be able to make a significant

1513
00:55:30,069 --> 00:55:29,200
dent in that i mean perhaps if you'd

1514
00:55:31,750 --> 00:55:30,079
gone on to

1515
00:55:33,190 --> 00:55:31,760
have a long-term relationship with him

1516
00:55:35,190 --> 00:55:33,200
then things might have been different

1517
00:55:36,230 --> 00:55:35,200
but obviously that wasn't wasn't going

1518
00:55:39,910 --> 00:55:36,240
to happen

1519
00:55:41,829 --> 00:55:39,920
but uh i i would you know think that you

1520
00:55:42,950 --> 00:55:41,839
probably did plant a few seeds in there

1521
00:55:45,190 --> 00:55:42,960
and

1522
00:55:47,030 --> 00:55:45,200
you probably will i don't know if you'll

1523
00:55:48,950 --> 00:55:47,040
ever follow up with him in

1524
00:55:50,950 --> 00:55:48,960
in in the years in the future but it

1525
00:55:53,990 --> 00:55:50,960
would be interesting to see

1526
00:55:55,510 --> 00:55:54,000
uh how he actually processes that

1527
00:55:58,630 --> 00:55:55,520
information

1528
00:56:01,270 --> 00:55:58,640
but we'll probably never know i

1529
00:56:03,270 --> 00:56:01,280
i mean i mean i mean this only happened

1530
00:56:07,190 --> 00:56:03,280
on sunday so this is all very fresh

1531
00:56:08,630 --> 00:56:07,200
so i can't i you know so at the moment

1532
00:56:10,710 --> 00:56:08,640
it's quite a big deal

1533
00:56:12,150 --> 00:56:10,720
and also um i think a bit of a

1534
00:56:15,109 --> 00:56:12,160
ridiculous experience

1535
00:56:16,150 --> 00:56:15,119
but i think that's why i wanted to talk

1536
00:56:19,990 --> 00:56:16,160
about it

1537
00:56:23,109 --> 00:56:20,000
because it it was draining

1538
00:56:25,910 --> 00:56:23,119
and um it was a bit scary

1539
00:56:28,390 --> 00:56:25,920
at times and it it also something you

1540
00:56:29,910 --> 00:56:28,400
never think will happen to you

1541
00:56:31,670 --> 00:56:29,920
and it's something on the fringes but

1542
00:56:33,109 --> 00:56:31,680
but i you know

1543
00:56:35,270 --> 00:56:33,119
i don't know if this is just fear

1544
00:56:36,870 --> 00:56:35,280
speaking but i do think it's becoming

1545
00:56:37,589 --> 00:56:36,880
more prevalent and like i said when i

1546
00:56:39,030 --> 00:56:37,599
started

1547
00:56:40,789 --> 00:56:39,040
i was talking about how coronavirus

1548
00:56:41,750 --> 00:56:40,799
theories conspiracy theories are

1549
00:56:46,069 --> 00:56:41,760
everywhere

1550
00:56:49,430 --> 00:56:46,079
everyone i i speak to here

1551
00:56:52,630 --> 00:56:49,440
has is a adherent to a con

1552
00:56:54,950 --> 00:56:52,640
coronavirus conspiracy theory

1553
00:56:55,829 --> 00:56:54,960
yeah well it's quite uh quite prevalent

1554
00:56:58,309 --> 00:56:55,839
here like

1555
00:56:59,030 --> 00:56:58,319
uh i think yeah significant numbers of

1556
00:57:00,390 --> 00:56:59,040
people in the

1557
00:57:02,390 --> 00:57:00,400
in the us say they won't take the

1558
00:57:05,589 --> 00:57:02,400
vaccine and

1559
00:57:07,990 --> 00:57:05,599
they live in a a reasonably uh uh

1560
00:57:09,670 --> 00:57:08,000
not not too conservative in a

1561
00:57:10,150 --> 00:57:09,680
neighborhood but you still see people

1562
00:57:12,789 --> 00:57:10,160
outside

1563
00:57:13,589 --> 00:57:12,799
refusing to wear masks in inside stores

1564
00:57:16,150 --> 00:57:13,599
and things like that

1565
00:57:17,990 --> 00:57:16,160
and certainly up the hill further up the

1566
00:57:21,190 --> 00:57:18,000
hill where it's a bit more rural

1567
00:57:22,630 --> 00:57:21,200
uh there's a lot of that going on but uh

1568
00:57:24,829 --> 00:57:22,640
it's interesting to hear that

1569
00:57:26,470 --> 00:57:24,839
it's it's happening in uh in other

1570
00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:26,480
countries

1571
00:57:30,069 --> 00:57:27,760
well this has been a fascinating

1572
00:57:32,549 --> 00:57:30,079
conversation uh and i know you

1573
00:57:34,390 --> 00:57:32,559
you think it's it's it's it exists on

1574
00:57:36,710 --> 00:57:34,400
the spectrum of conspiracy theories

1575
00:57:38,069 --> 00:57:36,720
uh in in a way it's not it's not an

1576
00:57:40,309 --> 00:57:38,079
extreme conspiracy theory like

1577
00:57:43,109 --> 00:57:40,319
chemtrails or whatnot uh

1578
00:57:45,510 --> 00:57:43,119
or moonlighting hoaxes and things but

1579
00:57:48,630 --> 00:57:45,520
it's obviously something that

1580
00:57:51,030 --> 00:57:48,640
has a huge impact on his life and

1581
00:57:53,190 --> 00:57:51,040
has has a huge impact on the people

1582
00:57:54,950 --> 00:57:53,200
around him in terms of it being like

1583
00:57:56,549 --> 00:57:54,960
underpinning his beliefs about how the

1584
00:58:00,309 --> 00:57:56,559
world works

1585
00:58:02,470 --> 00:58:00,319
so yeah even though it's perhaps not as

1586
00:58:05,030 --> 00:58:02,480
uh extreme as some conspiracy theories

1587
00:58:07,510 --> 00:58:05,040
it's still very very significant

1588
00:58:09,109 --> 00:58:07,520
and yeah it's it's a problem that people

1589
00:58:10,309 --> 00:58:09,119
have to deal with like how do you talk

1590
00:58:13,349 --> 00:58:10,319
to people

1591
00:58:14,789 --> 00:58:13,359
like that and then i think you you did

1592
00:58:17,990 --> 00:58:14,799
essentially do the right thing

1593
00:58:18,630 --> 00:58:18,000
from from what i heard and it's just

1594
00:58:25,510 --> 00:58:18,640
that

1595
00:58:29,430 --> 00:58:27,589
you know also i think i had to remind

1596
00:58:32,069 --> 00:58:29,440
myself that i'm in a new place

1597
00:58:33,670 --> 00:58:32,079
so i'm also in a vulnerable position so

1598
00:58:39,109 --> 00:58:33,680
i

1599
00:58:40,710 --> 00:58:39,119
to them

1600
00:58:43,109 --> 00:58:40,720
so that's something i had to really keep

1601
00:58:45,030 --> 00:58:43,119
in mind would i be doing this

1602
00:58:48,789 --> 00:58:45,040
if i were somewhere else and i was more

1603
00:58:53,349 --> 00:58:51,190
but uh what was i but thank you for

1604
00:58:55,030 --> 00:58:53,359
validating me because there is a guilt

1605
00:58:56,450 --> 00:58:55,040
i you know i didn't want to stop seeing

1606
00:58:57,589 --> 00:58:56,460
him um

1607
00:59:00,069 --> 00:58:57,599
[Music]

1608
00:59:01,829 --> 00:59:00,079
yeah yeah you you it's not like you have

1609
00:59:04,870 --> 00:59:01,839
the responsibility to cure him

1610
00:59:08,150 --> 00:59:04,880
uh his uh guy and you know you

1611
00:59:09,270 --> 00:59:08,160
you are you and uh uh you you i

1612
00:59:11,910 --> 00:59:09,280
like i said i think you probably did

1613
00:59:12,870 --> 00:59:11,920
help uh to the degree you could in the

1614
00:59:15,030 --> 00:59:12,880
time available

1615
00:59:15,910 --> 00:59:15,040
and the fact that he he was so deep

1616
00:59:18,390 --> 00:59:15,920
seated in him

1617
00:59:19,670 --> 00:59:18,400
you were never going to just you know

1618
00:59:21,270 --> 00:59:19,680
simply explain things to

1619
00:59:22,950 --> 00:59:21,280
this was a kind of a misconception i had

1620
00:59:24,710 --> 00:59:22,960
when i started talking to people about

1621
00:59:26,230 --> 00:59:24,720
conspiracy theories

1622
00:59:28,150 --> 00:59:26,240
is that you know obviously these things

1623
00:59:30,069 --> 00:59:28,160
are wrong so all you have to do is

1624
00:59:32,549 --> 00:59:30,079
explain why they're wrong and then

1625
00:59:33,430 --> 00:59:32,559
they'll be like oh right and they'll

1626
00:59:34,870 --> 00:59:33,440
move on but

1627
00:59:37,430 --> 00:59:34,880
it doesn't doesn't work like that

1628
00:59:39,990 --> 00:59:37,440
obviously and i'm sure you've seen

1629
00:59:40,470 --> 00:59:40,000
your attempts kind of bouncing off him

1630
00:59:44,230 --> 00:59:40,480
and

1631
00:59:45,190 --> 00:59:44,240
uh it's it just they become immune to

1632
00:59:49,109 --> 00:59:45,200
reason

1633
00:59:49,430 --> 00:59:49,119
immune to facts uh on a short-term basis

1634
00:59:50,630 --> 00:59:49,440
but

1635
00:59:52,549 --> 00:59:50,640
it does actually help i think on the

1636
00:59:56,390 --> 00:59:52,559
long term

1637
01:00:00,069 --> 00:59:58,069
all right what was uh was there anything

1638
01:00:01,190 --> 01:00:00,079
else you wanted to uh to mention that we

1639
01:00:05,270 --> 01:00:01,200
didn't we didn't discuss

1640
01:00:07,910 --> 01:00:05,280
um i do i i did come here because of the

1641
01:00:09,349 --> 01:00:07,920
that you know of a general fear of how

1642
01:00:12,150 --> 01:00:09,359
how

1643
01:00:13,030 --> 01:00:12,160
populist way of thinking is so i think

1644
01:00:20,230 --> 01:00:13,040
my

1645
01:00:22,470 --> 01:00:20,240
to counteract this and i listened to the

1646
01:00:23,750 --> 01:00:22,480
video i think it was previous to this

1647
01:00:26,789 --> 01:00:23,760
and a woman

1648
01:00:29,829 --> 01:00:26,799
woman was talking about kind of taking

1649
01:00:33,109 --> 01:00:29,839
dangerous content offline and um

1650
01:00:35,349 --> 01:00:33,119
this solving the problem um

1651
01:00:36,230 --> 01:00:35,359
what do you think about that well i

1652
01:00:38,309 --> 01:00:36,240
think

1653
01:00:39,829 --> 01:00:38,319
that's this kind of a complicated

1654
01:00:42,150 --> 01:00:39,839
subject because there's pros and cons of

1655
01:00:44,950 --> 01:00:42,160
taking things off offline because

1656
01:00:46,789 --> 01:00:44,960
if you take it off youtube say then it

1657
01:00:48,710 --> 01:00:46,799
goes somewhere else

1658
01:00:50,230 --> 01:00:48,720
uh i i've actually had problems with

1659
01:00:52,630 --> 01:00:50,240
youtube like uh i

1660
01:00:53,910 --> 01:00:52,640
i had a podcast interview with a guy

1661
01:00:56,710 --> 01:00:53,920
about q and on where

1662
01:00:58,470 --> 01:00:56,720
we were discussing queueing on and in a

1663
01:01:00,789 --> 01:00:58,480
critical way

1664
01:01:01,990 --> 01:01:00,799
and facebook deleted the video because

1665
01:01:05,109 --> 01:01:02,000
they they said it was

1666
01:01:06,950 --> 01:01:05,119
uh cyber stalking and harassment

1667
01:01:08,870 --> 01:01:06,960
which it obviously wasn't but they're

1668
01:01:12,549 --> 01:01:08,880
actually being quite heavy-handed now

1669
01:01:15,109 --> 01:01:12,559
and i think for a lot of people uh that

1670
01:01:16,630 --> 01:01:15,119
provides evidence that uh that there's

1671
01:01:18,950 --> 01:01:16,640
some kind of great conspiracy

1672
01:01:19,750 --> 01:01:18,960
trying to suppress their ideas but on

1673
01:01:21,510 --> 01:01:19,760
the other hand

1674
01:01:22,950 --> 01:01:21,520
it stops a lot of people being exposed

1675
01:01:25,990 --> 01:01:22,960
to those ideas so

1676
01:01:28,309 --> 01:01:26,000
it slows the spread so i'm

1677
01:01:30,069 --> 01:01:28,319
i'm not sure what the answer is there

1678
01:01:33,829 --> 01:01:30,079
and to what degree

1679
01:01:36,230 --> 01:01:33,839
um block simply blocking things

1680
01:01:37,589 --> 01:01:36,240
is the best approach i think you know we

1681
01:01:39,190 --> 01:01:37,599
have to supply

1682
01:01:42,230 --> 01:01:39,200
something else if we're going to remove

1683
01:01:44,630 --> 01:01:42,240
it we have to supply

1684
01:01:45,750 --> 01:01:44,640
information that's true if we're going

1685
01:01:46,309 --> 01:01:45,760
to be blocking all this other

1686
01:01:47,910 --> 01:01:46,319
information

1687
01:01:50,829 --> 01:01:47,920
otherwise people will still be attracted

1688
01:01:54,630 --> 01:01:50,839
to it even if it's over on some obscure

1689
01:01:59,589 --> 01:01:54,640
website but if there's such a mistrust

1690
01:02:00,230 --> 01:01:59,599
of people in institutions of any kind i

1691
01:02:04,630 --> 01:02:00,240
mean

1692
01:02:08,069 --> 01:02:04,640
government a distrust of corporations

1693
01:02:09,109 --> 01:02:08,079
a dis a dis a distrust of anything large

1694
01:02:12,549 --> 01:02:09,119
and powerful

1695
01:02:13,349 --> 01:02:12,559
then what can be said to counteract it

1696
01:02:17,430 --> 01:02:13,359
because

1697
01:02:19,430 --> 01:02:17,440
all evidence will be deemed falsifiable

1698
01:02:21,109 --> 01:02:19,440
something that might be helpful there is

1699
01:02:24,390 --> 01:02:21,119
teaching people about how

1700
01:02:25,430 --> 01:02:24,400
these institutions and uh governments

1701
01:02:27,430 --> 01:02:25,440
and things work

1702
01:02:29,990 --> 01:02:27,440
so a lot of people they view them

1703
01:02:31,750 --> 01:02:30,000
essentially as being these

1704
01:02:34,069 --> 01:02:31,760
black boxes where they have no idea what

1705
01:02:37,349 --> 01:02:34,079
goes on inside them and

1706
01:02:39,029 --> 01:02:37,359
educating people about how government

1707
01:02:40,789 --> 01:02:39,039
works and how the people work within

1708
01:02:41,990 --> 01:02:40,799
government and how the individuals do

1709
01:02:44,390 --> 01:02:42,000
their jobs

1710
01:02:45,990 --> 01:02:44,400
within government and within science uh

1711
01:02:46,549 --> 01:02:46,000
this is certainly something an approach

1712
01:02:49,750 --> 01:02:46,559
that

1713
01:02:52,150 --> 01:02:49,760
i encourage with with scientists uh

1714
01:02:53,029 --> 01:02:52,160
is that you know engaging more with

1715
01:02:56,069 --> 01:02:53,039
people

1716
01:02:59,190 --> 01:02:56,079
about their work um

1717
01:03:00,549 --> 01:02:59,200
yeah and i think it comes from education

1718
01:03:03,670 --> 01:03:00,559
at a young age

1719
01:03:05,029 --> 01:03:03,680
i'm i genuinely believe i mean something

1720
01:03:07,750 --> 01:03:05,039
we don't have in the uk

1721
01:03:10,230 --> 01:03:07,760
we don't have an we have an education

1722
01:03:13,190 --> 01:03:10,240
and scientific method from a young age

1723
01:03:14,630 --> 01:03:13,200
but we don't have any education in how

1724
01:03:19,910 --> 01:03:14,640
to

1725
01:03:22,470 --> 01:03:19,920
critically engage with philosophical

1726
01:03:26,549 --> 01:03:22,480
thought how to debate

1727
01:03:28,950 --> 01:03:26,559
different ideas and to bring evidence

1728
01:03:31,029 --> 01:03:28,960
about those different you know in into

1729
01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:31,039
your arguments the kind of structure of

1730
01:03:36,630 --> 01:03:32,880
logical arguments

1731
01:03:37,190 --> 01:03:36,640
and um i don't think we learn that and

1732
01:03:38,710 --> 01:03:37,200
especially

1733
01:03:40,309 --> 01:03:38,720
don't learn anything about the

1734
01:03:42,390 --> 01:03:40,319
philosophical method

1735
01:03:43,349 --> 01:03:42,400
um yeah i think you know things like

1736
01:03:45,589 --> 01:03:43,359
that do happen

1737
01:03:47,510 --> 01:03:45,599
uh but i think it's kind of um it varies

1738
01:03:50,710 --> 01:03:47,520
a lot by individual teachers

1739
01:03:54,150 --> 01:03:50,720
and what initiative they take uh i

1740
01:03:55,990 --> 01:03:54,160
i i'm friends with a few teachers uh

1741
01:03:58,309 --> 01:03:56,000
here in the united states we have

1742
01:04:01,910 --> 01:03:58,319
friends and relatives who are teachers

1743
01:04:03,589 --> 01:04:01,920
here and they i brought these issues up

1744
01:04:05,109 --> 01:04:03,599
with them like what more can we do like

1745
01:04:05,430 --> 01:04:05,119
teach critical thinking and things like

1746
01:04:09,670 --> 01:04:05,440
that

1747
01:04:10,950 --> 01:04:09,680
do teach critical thinking and they do

1748
01:04:14,630 --> 01:04:10,960
have classes

1749
01:04:16,549 --> 01:04:14,640
in subjects like this and things like uh

1750
01:04:18,230 --> 01:04:16,559
how to read a news story and how to

1751
01:04:21,510 --> 01:04:18,240
check the the sources

1752
01:04:22,950 --> 01:04:21,520
so it's certainly happening but i

1753
01:04:25,670 --> 01:04:22,960
i think it's perhaps something that we

1754
01:04:26,870 --> 01:04:25,680
need needs to be more addressed as a

1755
01:04:29,990 --> 01:04:26,880
fundamental

1756
01:04:32,390 --> 01:04:30,000
uh part of of learning in the same way

1757
01:04:34,549 --> 01:04:32,400
that we've treated uh science and

1758
01:04:37,190 --> 01:04:34,559
mathematics and basic english

1759
01:04:38,630 --> 01:04:37,200
as being fundamentals and it would be

1760
01:04:41,029 --> 01:04:38,640
great if we could move

1761
01:04:42,630 --> 01:04:41,039
move more towards that because it is

1762
01:04:43,750 --> 01:04:42,640
increasingly important

1763
01:04:45,670 --> 01:04:43,760
but i think that you're even going to

1764
01:04:48,150 --> 01:04:45,680
get some some pushback on that

1765
01:04:49,510 --> 01:04:48,160
there there was a famous thing that

1766
01:04:50,950 --> 01:04:49,520
happened in the united states or

1767
01:04:54,069 --> 01:04:50,960
slightly famous

1768
01:04:57,589 --> 01:04:54,079
where the republican party

1769
01:04:59,990 --> 01:04:57,599
they put out a what they call a plank

1770
01:05:00,950 --> 01:05:00,000
which is a list of all the the policies

1771
01:05:04,390 --> 01:05:00,960
that they're going to

1772
01:05:08,390 --> 01:05:04,400
promote if they get elected and uh

1773
01:05:09,589 --> 01:05:08,400
one of them was they will i think i

1774
01:05:12,390 --> 01:05:09,599
can't remember how they phrased it

1775
01:05:14,950 --> 01:05:12,400
exactly but it was basically they would

1776
01:05:16,789 --> 01:05:14,960
uh stop critical thinking being taught

1777
01:05:18,150 --> 01:05:16,799
in schools

1778
01:05:20,470 --> 01:05:18,160
and they actually used the phrase

1779
01:05:23,190 --> 01:05:20,480
critical thinking because

1780
01:05:24,230 --> 01:05:23,200
critical thinking kind of became for

1781
01:05:27,750 --> 01:05:24,240
them

1782
01:05:28,549 --> 01:05:27,760
the idea that left-wing people are going

1783
01:05:31,430 --> 01:05:28,559
to

1784
01:05:33,349 --> 01:05:31,440
teach them teach people about you know

1785
01:05:37,430 --> 01:05:33,359
whatever religion and morals and

1786
01:05:39,270 --> 01:05:37,440
gender diversity and uh

1787
01:05:40,549 --> 01:05:39,280
racism and historical privilege and

1788
01:05:43,670 --> 01:05:40,559
things like that

1789
01:05:45,910 --> 01:05:43,680
uh under the guise of critical thinking

1790
01:05:47,750 --> 01:05:45,920
so you we got this push back against

1791
01:05:49,029 --> 01:05:47,760
against the very very idea of critical

1792
01:05:50,630 --> 01:05:49,039
thinking itself because they didn't

1793
01:05:53,029 --> 01:05:50,640
realize that it actually meant something

1794
01:05:56,950 --> 01:05:53,039
more abstract than that

1795
01:06:00,069 --> 01:05:56,960
so it's it's i think any push

1796
01:06:00,710 --> 01:06:00,079
to encourage teaching things like this

1797
01:06:03,829 --> 01:06:00,720
this

1798
01:06:05,109 --> 01:06:03,839
comparative analysis or whatever uh of

1799
01:06:06,549 --> 01:06:05,119
sources

1800
01:06:08,549 --> 01:06:06,559
is gonna actually get some political

1801
01:06:11,589 --> 01:06:08,559
pushback because not everybody wants

1802
01:06:14,870 --> 01:06:11,599
there to be this uh free and open

1803
01:06:18,069 --> 01:06:16,789
but i do think it is definitely

1804
01:06:19,349 --> 01:06:18,079
something that we should push for even

1805
01:06:19,990 --> 01:06:19,359
though we are going to get some pushback

1806
01:06:23,109 --> 01:06:20,000
on it

1807
01:06:26,309 --> 01:06:23,119
yeah uh this is something um that

1808
01:06:27,750 --> 01:06:26,319
um the vietnamese government has noticed

1809
01:06:29,430 --> 01:06:27,760
their schooling system doesn't engage

1810
01:06:30,950 --> 01:06:29,440
with any uh doesn't

1811
01:06:32,789 --> 01:06:30,960
teach in any way any critical thinking

1812
01:06:35,990 --> 01:06:32,799
so they've started just kind of

1813
01:06:37,829 --> 01:06:36,000
they've started initiatives for critical

1814
01:06:39,829 --> 01:06:37,839
thinking classes

1815
01:06:41,349 --> 01:06:39,839
um in some schools which is uh

1816
01:06:43,029 --> 01:06:41,359
fascinating

1817
01:06:45,190 --> 01:06:43,039
yeah yeah it's definitely something

1818
01:06:48,150 --> 01:06:45,200
that's needed um

1819
01:06:49,190 --> 01:06:48,160
it's also something i i think is often

1820
01:06:51,270 --> 01:06:49,200
poorly defined

1821
01:06:53,990 --> 01:06:51,280
uh what critical thinking actually is

1822
01:06:55,190 --> 01:06:54,000
yeah uh so it's a bit difficult to argue

1823
01:06:57,029 --> 01:06:55,200
for i think we need a better

1824
01:06:58,549 --> 01:06:57,039
definition of exactly what we are trying

1825
01:07:00,630 --> 01:06:58,559
to promote

1826
01:07:01,670 --> 01:07:00,640
uh which because people think critical

1827
01:07:03,910 --> 01:07:01,680
thinking is just like

1828
01:07:05,670 --> 01:07:03,920
uh using your brain to think about

1829
01:07:07,349 --> 01:07:05,680
things really hard

1830
01:07:08,870 --> 01:07:07,359
and that's kind of what the definitions

1831
01:07:11,190 --> 01:07:08,880
boil down to when

1832
01:07:13,190 --> 01:07:11,200
there's probably better ways of putting

1833
01:07:14,549 --> 01:07:13,200
in it but anyway it's uh

1834
01:07:16,549 --> 01:07:14,559
it's definitely something i'm in favor

1835
01:07:19,270 --> 01:07:16,559
of and and i do think

1836
01:07:20,390 --> 01:07:19,280
it's i do think it's really important to

1837
01:07:24,390 --> 01:07:20,400
to

1838
01:07:27,910 --> 01:07:24,400
um accept people's fears um

1839
01:07:28,309 --> 01:07:27,920
legitimate fears about government uh you

1840
01:07:31,430 --> 01:07:28,319
know

1841
01:07:33,430 --> 01:07:31,440
and because people and uh groups of

1842
01:07:35,349 --> 01:07:33,440
people who hold positions of power

1843
01:07:36,549 --> 01:07:35,359
yeah um you know and there have been

1844
01:07:40,069 --> 01:07:36,559
huge conspiracies

1845
01:07:42,150 --> 01:07:40,079
unveiled over the past 50 years you see

1846
01:07:44,309 --> 01:07:42,160
you know even longer where it's like wow

1847
01:07:47,430 --> 01:07:44,319
i can't believe my government did that

1848
01:07:51,109 --> 01:07:47,440
absolutely um yeah about how

1849
01:07:51,910 --> 01:07:51,119
to place that in in a sphere where you

1850
01:07:54,230 --> 01:07:51,920
still

1851
01:07:56,390 --> 01:07:54,240
trust the you where you because you have

1852
01:07:59,589 --> 01:07:56,400
to put interest of

1853
01:08:01,829 --> 01:07:59,599
of the like machinery of government

1854
01:08:03,349 --> 01:08:01,839
and you you have to trust that process

1855
01:08:04,069 --> 01:08:03,359
otherwise what have what else have you

1856
01:08:06,390 --> 01:08:04,079
got

1857
01:08:07,589 --> 01:08:06,400
yeah but it's kind of a trust yet verify

1858
01:08:11,029 --> 01:08:07,599
i think

1859
01:08:12,390 --> 01:08:11,039
uh and or or if you want distrust yet

1860
01:08:14,069 --> 01:08:12,400
verify

1861
01:08:15,430 --> 01:08:14,079
you can you can still have a suspicion

1862
01:08:16,950 --> 01:08:15,440
of the government but you can still

1863
01:08:19,430 --> 01:08:16,960
check what they're doing

1864
01:08:20,229 --> 01:08:19,440
uh and obviously the government isn't

1865
01:08:22,470 --> 01:08:20,239
lying about

1866
01:08:24,390 --> 01:08:22,480
everything even if uh there are people

1867
01:08:28,229 --> 01:08:24,400
within the government who are

1868
01:08:30,550 --> 01:08:28,239
uh to some degree acting nefariously the

1869
01:08:31,590 --> 01:08:30,560
the the machine that we have here the

1870
01:08:35,349 --> 01:08:31,600
system

1871
01:08:36,829 --> 01:08:35,359
of uh of of of government and academia

1872
01:08:39,669 --> 01:08:36,839
and science

1873
01:08:40,950 --> 01:08:39,679
is generally an honest one because it's

1874
01:08:43,669 --> 01:08:40,960
comprised of people who

1875
01:08:44,309 --> 01:08:43,679
people are generally honest and i think

1876
01:08:47,669 --> 01:08:44,319
you know

1877
01:08:48,709 --> 01:08:47,679
if we can shine a light on that and get

1878
01:08:50,709 --> 01:08:48,719
people to

1879
01:08:51,990 --> 01:08:50,719
you know as you say you know trust it to

1880
01:08:57,910 --> 01:08:52,000
the extent that it's justified

1881
01:09:03,269 --> 01:09:01,510
all right well well thank you very much

1882
01:09:04,550 --> 01:09:03,279
uh this has been a great great